Joined: Sept 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 86 Location: geosync orbit
Re: Armstrong´s quote « Reply #18 on Oct 15, 2005, 9:06am »
Quote:
I'm afraid your second example doesn't really hold up: he's using "Man" instead of repeating "Mankind", which wouldn't sound as good...
Which is partially my point. Armstrong may have intended to take all the credit as a single man, but IMHO, it sounds better to show how one small step represents a giant leap, BOTH by mankind.
Also, as to the example. It could be interpreted as studying mankind to understand mankind, OR it could mean understanding mankind by studying all the intricacies of a single specimen. And either way, it sounds better - and is acceptable - to use the word "man" without an adjective.
Re: Armstrong´s quote « Reply #20 on Oct 17, 2005, 1:23pm »
But, it does appear in the title where the 'artist' uses poetic license for the sake of aesthetics.
But the context is important. In the context of a title, many articles are omitted without ambiguity, especially when from the first word. And that title is less ambiguous because the "of La Mancha" fills the role of the article in determining the intended scope.
In the show/song/poem, the line is: "The Lord of La Mancha." Had I written it, I would have left off "the," and it would have had the same meaning.
Joined: Oct 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 119 Location: West Coast USA
Re: Armstrong´s quote « Reply #21 on Oct 20, 2005, 7:58pm »
Gotta agree with Jay and Al on the difference that little 'a' makes.
For instance, there is a huge difference in meaning if I said "I am man" vs. if I had said "I am A man."
I also hear the 'ra' when I hear Armstrong doing the quote. I grew up in CA., but in kind of a rural area, (kinda close to Barstow and the Mojave desert actually) so people do that here too sometimes. I know I butcher my english pretty barbarically when I speak.
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 244 Location: San Antonio, TX
Re: Armstrong´s quote « Reply #23 on Nov 19, 2005, 2:05pm »
You guys are seriously arguing about whether a single "a" was left out of the transmission when he said that line?
Seriously, I'm all for discussions like this. The greatest of ideas can come from the smallest of debates.
However, I think that, "A small step for man, a giant leap for mankind" still has a lot of symbolism and power without any "a'' before man. that's my personal opinion.
However, if he really was vying to have "a" put in the records, like Utah says (and he's a good source), then it really doesn't matter what I think; doesn't change what Armstrong really mean.
Joined: Aug 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 37 Location: Bristol, UK
Re: Armstrong´s quote « Reply #24 on Dec 13, 2005, 10:13am »
Quote:
Quote:
There's not really an argument about whether or not he intended to say "a man" he did, the debate is whether the "a" was lost in transmission.
Well, I went to the Snopes link, so I can't debate the fact that Neil 'intended' to say (a) man. But, I sure am glad he messed it up!
I'm somewhat of a linguist by trade or training, and I feel strongly that 1) it sounds much better without the "a," and 2) it IS grammatically and linguistically correct without it.
The problem comes with the general public's lack of command of the English language, and/or understanding of other languages. The French version of this exemplifies my point:
"Un petit pas pour l'homme, une grand saut pour l'humanite."
Although "humanite" is actually a colloquial form meaning humanity as opposed to the more formal "humaine" which is humankind or mankind, it shows that this would be a statement by an average man under the circumstances.
In French, to say (a) man would be 'un homme' with 'un' being the masculine article. But, a detective would not say that "he got his (a) man," he would say, "he got his man."
The Snopes article says that Man and Mankind have essentially the same meaning in English (or at least in America,) but this is just not necessarily true. Although it can and does have the same meaning at times, it is also used quite differently at others.
Man is just a word for the male of the species, as opposed to woman. In French that would be L'homme. (The man) One would not say "un L'homme" for A 'certain' man, just un homme. Likewise, one would not say un homme when he just means 'man.' And although this is inclusive, it is not the same as saying 'all mankind.'
As evidenced in the above French translation of Armstrong's quote, there are different words in almost all languages to distinguish between (the) man, as distinguished from other lifeforms, and ALL men (or mankind.)
I believe Armstrong was/is a very intelligent man and perhaps subconciously was choosing at the last moment what his mind knew to be the correct usage. Unfortunately after the fact, he was shamed into accepting what he thought everyone else would have expected him to say.
Either way... the better form is, in fact, "That's one small step for Man, one giant leap for Mankind."
Notice how the articles agree, but are cumbersome, if one says in French, "Un petit pas pour Un homme, une grand saut pour un humain." In fact, you would never use 'un' with humain (a humankind.) You would use LE (contracted) for L'humain or L'humanite, and therefore laws of article agreement and good writing style dictate that you would also use L'homme instead of Un homme.
The correct translation into English then would be:
Un petit pas pour l'homme (One small step for Man,) Une grand saut pour l'humanite (One giant leap for Mankind.)
Armstrong may have been misquoted, thank God. But, if not, then he was wrong about being wrong. The way he said it (or it was heard) was correct.
Hmm, still don't see the relevance of how it translates into French. In English, the language in question, 'Man' is always understood to mean 'mankind', so clearly there was meant to be an indefinite article . Otherwise, the sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't know where you 'trained' in linguistics, but I'd ask for my money back if I were you!
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 21 Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Re: Armstrong´s quote « Reply #25 on Dec 14, 2005, 2:40am »
I dont know if I'm in the minority here or what, but I kind of like the "flub". It just adds a little "flavor" to the story, and indirectly highlights what WAS important. That they did it. As Neil has said, he considered the point of contact and touchdown to be the defining moment. Not the first step. They were pilots, not poets.
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