Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Thread Started on Mar 24, 2009, 2:55am »
Half asleep, heard this fellow on Coast to Coast AM, took mental note and then saw Fox Funny Thing Happened video and was impressed with its 'effectiveness". Thought "what the heck" and figured I better find a de-bunking site and study up a little. Jumping Christmas! Nice site. Real reasonable and scientific. Pretty much smacked down Funny Thing on all points, looks to me. I have a couple of questions and comments for later, after I read some more. Don't want say anything too stupid, or what's already been covered. Hello to everyone.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,845 Location: South East England
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #2 on Mar 24, 2009, 12:21pm »
We like people who are willing to appear stupid when asking questions. It's the ones who insist on staying stupid after being given the answers we don't like.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #4 on Mar 25, 2009, 8:39pm »
Questions and Comments:
1) "HB" is Hoax Believer or something?
2) This review of _bart sibrel's top fifteen_ is a fine example of reasoned counterpoint. This is good writing and thinking. Sharp, logical, persuasive. Truth be told, I am reminded of David Ray Griffin, an author I greatly respect.
3) One bit in the Funny Thing video which I have yet to resolve (without a lot of button pushing and mouse clicking, ho-hum) is the part where they superimpose two videos said to be of different missions and/or many miles apart yet which share identical scenery. Is this so? Has this been refuted?
4) In 3 or 4 days I've gone from 70% No-Mooner to 99% Mooner, with my guts telling me it's a done deal. Settled. That was quick. Gut-settling 9/11 took about a year. JFK was about 3-4 months.
Am I getting better with practice, or is it the nature of the controversies? The argued Big Event in Moon Hoax is itself a scientific/technical operation. So the arguments ride along technical lines. To my mind thus far, the No-Mooners have used bad science, hit pieces, out-of-context materials and, let's say, emotional appeal. When I was done watching Funny Thing, I was all...
"Oh man, I wouldn't put it past those lying murdering government creeps..."
5) A buddy of mine told me yesterday that at least one of the moon missions left devices up there that scientists use even today. Like some mirrored objects that we bounce signals against, etc. If this is so, then why is there a controversy at all? Again, pushing and clicking would probably get me the answer to this, but I'll just ask you. Come to think of it, I'm pushing and clicking right now, so what the heck.
3) One bit in the Funny Thing video which I have yet to resolve (without a lot of button pushing and mouse clicking, ho-hum) is the part where they superimpose two videos said to be of different missions and/or many miles apart yet which share identical scenery. Is this so? Has this been refuted?
5) A buddy of mine told me yesterday that at least one of the moon missions left devices up there that scientists use even today. Like some mirrored objects that we bounce signals against, etc. If this is so, then why is there a controversy at all?
Some HBs say the laser reflectors were placed on the Moon by secret unmanned missions because the Russians deployed one that way. Here's a thread that discussed this.
"My feet they finally took root in the Earth, but I got me a nice little place in the stars, and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car..."
4) In 3 or 4 days I've gone from 70% No-Mooner to 99% Mooner, with my guts telling me it's a done deal. Settled. That was quick. Gut-settling 9/11 took about a year. JFK was about 3-4 months.
See, you should have come here sooner! We could've taken care of all of that for you. (Seriously, it's always nice when people start really looking at evidence. Good for you.)
Quote:
Am I getting better with practice, or is it the nature of the controversies? The argued Big Event in Moon Hoax is itself a scientific/technical operation. So the arguments ride along technical lines. To my mind thus far, the No-Mooners have used bad science, hit pieces, out-of-context materials and, let's say, emotional appeal. When I was done watching Funny Thing, I was all...
"Oh man, I wouldn't put it past those lying murdering government creeps..."
I think that, once you start seeing how the science behind things works, it becomes easier to see where the errors are. 9/11? There's a ton of science there, and understanding it takes some work. Okay. There's science behind Kennedy, too--ballistics, angles of trajectory, and so forth. And, of course, there is that tendency to see the government as one overwhelming, monolithic, evil organization. The more you learn, the less likely you are to think of it that way. Yeah, people in the government can be creeps. And pretty much everybody can lie. I'll even grant you some murdering. But I've got to say, as an organization? It doesn't really work that way. Learning that will, in the long run, do you about as much good as learning the science.
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #7 on Mar 26, 2009, 2:24am »
Gillianren:
Oh yes indeed, 9/11's got tons of science to it. To the investigation of it. Depending on how you've 'settled" on it, 9/11's Big Event was either not a scientific operation or it was a (shadow) government military/technical one. If you're a "truther" then yes, (elements of) the (shadow) government are a bunch of murderers. Personally my settling on JFK was mostly politico-historical. The film, photo, acoustic, medical analysis, etc was of critical but secondary importance. Hmmm, in both cases the post-Event actions/inactions of the government smacked of coverup. I guess you can see where I've settled on those issues. If more on this, I'll move to another thread and section.
In Moon Hoax, I'm just not digging it. The major proponents of it don't seem to be adequately counter-responding to technical refutation. All I'm getting is...
No-Mooner: The shadows aren't parallel! The flags are waving!
Mooner: There are reasons for that. Here they are.
No-Mooner: You're not listening, damn it! The shadows aren't parallel! The flags are waving!
I'm reading around some more. Keep an open mind. Tour about the sites and look at the pretty pictures.
Speaking of. Wow, as a hobbyist photographer I'm disappointed that I never really perused these Moon pix before. Stunning. There's this site called, uh, Journal something. It's got a giant pile of pix and videos. Hot dang. Got it. It's Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. Oh yeah.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #8 on Mar 26, 2009, 3:38am »
I have to admit that I do worry when you say that you have great respect for DRG, mostly because his work is so full of fabrications and knowingly uncorrected errors that I rate him slightly below Mike Moore and just above Bart Sibrel, the three of them being somewhere below Lawyers, Politicans, an used car salesmen.
Having said that, it is indeed a good thing to have an open mind, but not so open that all rationallity falls out. As a person I know says, keep an open mind, but have a good fly screen.
Enjoy your stay.
« Last Edit: Mar 26, 2009, 3:43am by PhantomWolf »
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Questions and Comments: Am I getting better with practice, or is it the nature of the controversies?
Probably both. 1. A conspiracy for the assasination of a President may not be ordinary, but it requires far less ignorance of reality than the Moonhoax
2. The more you participate in these "discussions" the easier it is to see through the dishonest debate tactics of the Conspiracists.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #10 on Mar 26, 2009, 8:33am »
The CTs tend to use the same sort of arugment, and often are the same people. For instance Jack White is a known JFK, Apollo, and 9/11 nutbar. Many of the others dabble in multiple conspiracies too.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
"Earth diameter is 7,900 miles, and Moon diameter is 2,160 miles. It takes on average 90 minutes to complete one Earth orbit, so one Moon orbit should take roughly 25 minutes." - Sam "NasaScam" Colby
"you data is still open for interpretation, after all a NASA employee might of wipe a booger or dropped a hair on it" - showtime
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #12 on Mar 27, 2009, 4:04am »
PhantomWolf:
No need to worry, my new acquaintance. I will try not to behave like a nutbar.
If you have the time and inclination, please describe for me a couple of fabrications and knowingly uncorrected errors perpetrated by DRG, outside of the errors in _A New Pearl Harbor_ which he himself corrects in _A New Pearl Harbor Revisited_.
I think he is far more virtuous than both Michael Moore and Bart Sibrel and does not even belong on your arbitrary scale of villainy.
This guy is smart as hell. Christian Theologian. Me, I'm atheist. Some sort of a quasi-Buddhist agnostic bum. Heathen. Though I have practiced meditation, which I would certainly recommend to everyone, due in part to its hygienic nature.
He's got this book, Whitehead's Radically Different Postmodern Philosophy, which I'm just starting to get into, which has a lot to do with the birth of something called "process theology" which in turn gives me some way to at least have a conversation with churchy people. It's a sort-of Scientific Christianity. God is changing and adapting as well as other beings, I think. something like that. It's a process.
3) One bit in the Funny Thing video which I have yet to resolve (without a lot of button pushing and mouse clicking, ho-hum) is the part where they superimpose two videos said to be of different missions and/or many miles apart yet which share identical scenery. Is this so? Has this been refuted?
It's a typical piece of HB nonsense where they fail to take into account their source. In this case a couple of film clips used in a documentary show were mislabelled as being from different missions when they were in fact from the same mission and the same location. Not only that, but if you go back to the primary TV footage from NASA, they are in the same, uninterrupted piece of TV footage.
HBs commonly take things from documentaries and fail to consider that someone might have edited them to make them better for the average joe to view (speeding them up, adding sounds, using sound from other parts of the mission, etc.). They rarely go back to the original footage.
Quote:
Am I getting better with practice, or is it the nature of the controversies?
Both, I expect.
Quote:
The argued Big Event in Moon Hoax is itself a scientific/technical operation. So the arguments ride along technical lines. To my mind thus far, the No-Mooners have used bad science, hit pieces, out-of-context materials and, let's say, emotional appeal.
That's exactly what they do. They take their own limited understanding of the world around them and assume it is sufficient to draw reasonable conclusions from. That is always assuming they actually believe what they are saying in the first place. From long experience, some of the more vocal hoax proponents have a disturbing tendency to simply lie outright.
Quote:
5) A buddy of mine told me yesterday that at least one of the moon missions left devices up there that scientists use even today.
That's correct. All six landings left a set of experiments on the Moon that continued sending back data for several years before being shut off, but three of them left reflectors behind that are still being used to bounce lasers off today to measure the distance between Earth and the Moon.
Quote:
If this is so, then why is there a controversy at all?
Because the HBs don't have access to the lasers used, and because they have a vested interest in maintaining their argument, so they insist they were placed by unmanned missions or that they're not really there at all.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Hello, new guy testing. Clavius very nice. « Reply #14 on Mar 27, 2009, 11:27am »
It seems to me that at least some hoax believers wouldn't believe man can get to the moon even if NASA got them there, put them in a suit, and sent them out to walk around. They would still think it had somehow all been faked.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
Logged
![[avatar]](http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4969/evergreen100.jpg "[avatar]")
![[msn]](http://images.proboards.com/msn.gif "[msn]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
![[avatar]](http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2008/07/03/03jul_mercuryupdate_resources/256981main_caloris_color_lg_strip.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://apollo-history-and-hoax.com/images/phantomwolf2a.gif "[avatar]")
![[icq]](http://images.proboards.com/icq.gif "[icq]")
![[yim]](http://images.proboards.com/yim.gif "[yim]")
![[aim]](http://images.proboards.com/aim.gif "[aim]")
![[avatar]](http://home.comcast.net/~jbpostma/d20.jpg "[avatar]")