Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #195 on Apr 11, 2007, 5:45pm »
Quote:
It doesn't seem likely, but it's not inconceivable. My point (other than the sheer self-contradictory and otherwise nonsensical nature of so many CT claims) is that the alleged "suppression" of 9/11 CT claimants (except for those who actually make such claims, oddly enough) detracts from the real issues, such as real incidents of "suppression".
Rubbish, Censorship is a form of suppression and it's obvious that the media have been actively censoring 911 debate.
You can't help yourself even in one brief post you use the derogatory term CT twice and you lot howl when you think it's being suggested you're government loyalists. In my opinion cutting through all the crap and looking at all the cover ups, the fact that the phony investigation was only ever started because of a group of widowed mothers had to fight for it and are still fighting for a true investigation. Your position is against widows of 911. Your position has to ignore the failings of the commission report and cherry pick the parts you find feasible, it must ignore the witnesses of explosions who were in amongst them and call the Liars. Your position is against witnesses. Now I'm not really into labelling people as It is a form of suppression and is used by propaganda merchants so I'll just ask if I'm a CT, what the hell are you?
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #196 on Apr 11, 2007, 5:54pm »
If 9/11 theories were being supressed then they would not be so frequent on the Internet or other mediums (like Rosie O'donnell's show), or the expounders of such theories would be facing regular persecution. That's not happening. If the mainstream media has mostly ignored 9/11 theories then that is not suppression. Rather it is an indication that the media sees no merit in them.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #197 on Apr 11, 2007, 6:22pm »
Quote:
If 9/11 theories were being supressed then they would not be so frequent on the Internet or other mediums (like Rosie O'donnell's show), or the expounders of such theories would be facing regular persecution. That's not happening. If the mainstream media has mostly ignored 9/11 theories then that is not suppression. Rather it is an indication that the media sees no merit in them.
The 911 commission report failure is not a theory, the air defenses and intelligence failures that would have to have occurred on 911 are not theories, they happened. They can't report anything subsantial about 911 and the aftermath because it leads to an enormous rabbit hole and the MSM is one of the biggest bunnies down there.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #199 on Apr 11, 2007, 8:29pm »
That's because it didn't make any sense. 3onthetree is so angry at the giant, ultrasecret (except when the conspirators casually admit it on television) conspiracy, and us brainwashed "government loyalists", he's getting incoherent.
Rubbish, Censorship is a form of suppression and it's obvious that the media have been actively censoring 911 debate.
Not giving credence to nonsense is not the same thing as "censorship". You are developing an entire alternate dictionary. Maybe you should start ConspiracyWiki.
You can't help yourself even in one brief post you use the derogatory term CT twice and you lot howl when you think it's being suggested you're government loyalists.
You believe there was a giant and ongoing conspiracy. Therefore, you are a conspiracy theorist. On the other hand, I am demonstrably not a supporter of a dishonest, blundering, secretive, and ideology-bound Administration.
In my opinion cutting through all the crap and looking at all the cover ups, the fact that the phony investigation was only ever started because of a group of widowed mothers had to fight for it and are still fighting for a true investigation. Your position is against widows of 911.
Nonsense. I am for a full accounting of all intelligence and policy failures prior to and after 9/11; for efforts to continue recovery of remains; for medical attention to WTC survivors and rescuers for respiratory ailments; and for accounting of all errors, distortions, and untruths promulgated by the Administration based on 9/11.
Your position has to ignore the failings of the commission report and cherry pick the parts you find feasible, it must ignore the witnesses of explosions who were in amongst them and call the Liars.
Nope. I haven't even been involved in those discussions. I've made general points about fires and smoke and the difficulties of using explosives as postulated by the CTs, and other remarks about the inconsistencies and absurdities of 9/11 conspiracy claims.
Your position is against witnesses.
Not at all. I've pointed out that dozens of witnesses saw a commercial jetliner fly into the Pentagon, for example.
Now I'm not really into labelling people as It is a form of suppression and is used by propaganda merchants so I'll just ask if I'm a CT, what the hell are you?
Just an engineer who is more interested in the real problems, failures, and misdeeds of the world than in paranoid fantasies.
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 3,492 Location: Olympia
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #200 on Apr 11, 2007, 9:54pm »
I'm much more concerned about the fact that the news makes a bigger fuss over who the father of Anna Nicole Smith's unfortunate child is than the fact that all tours in Iraq just got extended by three months across the board. If so many ignorant, self-righteous people weren't harping on the scientifically-unsound conspiracy theories, maybe they'd have the energy and focus to do something about the government's real failings.
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #201 on Apr 12, 2007, 3:07am »
Quote:
Wait, first you take in witness accounts of melted steel, but not of debris striking WTC 7?
Double standards, or back peddling?
I replied...
Flaming debris hit WTC 7, and melted steel was found.
That's fine with me. It's OK with you, I presume?
Now you say...
Quote:
Problem is, proof exists for one of those statements, but not the other. Your claim of witnesses finding molten steel is just parroting what you read on CT sites.
So now you claim there is proof for one statement (I'll guess you meant the flaming debris), but not the other (molten steel)??
Please show me the proof for flaming debris.......
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #202 on Apr 12, 2007, 3:44am »
Now instead of providing the support that transfers load between the primeter and the core, the trusses are dead weight applying a lateral force to the columns which themselves have been heated (thus suffering from expansion and softening as well) which bowed them inwards (this inward bowing of the primeter columns is dramatically seen in both photos and video taken of the Towers prior to the collapse.)
As the columns bowed inwards they lost the ability to support the floors above. You can show this with a straw. Stand it on your desk top and press down on it with one finger so that it has force on it, but isn't deforming. Now use your other hand to add a lateral force by pushing the middle of the straw into a bow. What happens when it passes a certain point? The straw collapses, right? This is what the primeter columns did, and as each failed, it passed on it's load to it's neighbouring columns. Because their load now dramatically increased, they failed, and passed their load and so on all the way about the face of the building. Of course once enough columns had failed, the top of the building started moving, which we saw as a tilt as one face of the building gave way. Fractions of a second later the progressing column failure had literally unzipped the top floors from the bottom, and with the final remaining support totally unable to do so, the only thing holding it up the top of the building was gravity, so it did what all things do when in that situation, it dropped, the columns slicing through the floor below and forcing the primeter columns outwards, a result that started a massive pancaking. The pancaking was a result of the collapse, not the cause.
NIST's collapse theory, as part of a post written by PhantomWolf.
The problem is that it's incorrect. And impossible.
NIST's actual, stated theory....
...fires...significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers.
Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
But as FEMA had noted in it's earlier report.....
Review of videotape recordings of the collapse taken from various angles indicates that the transmission tower on top of the structure began to move downward and laterally slightly before movement was evident at the exterior wall. This suggests that collapse began with one or more failures in the central core area of the building.
Joined: Oct 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 868 Location: Florida
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #203 on Apr 12, 2007, 8:21am »
Quote:
Quote:
Wait, first you take in witness accounts of melted steel, but not of debris striking WTC 7?
Double standards, or back peddling?
I replied...
Flaming debris hit WTC 7, and melted steel was found.
That's fine with me. It's OK with you, I presume?
Now you say...
Quote:
Problem is, proof exists for one of those statements, but not the other. Your claim of witnesses finding molten steel is just parroting what you read on CT sites.
So now you claim there is proof for one statement (I'll guess you meant the flaming debris), but not the other (molten steel)??
Please show me the proof for flaming debris.......
Don't waste your energy talking to me.
I told you, I'm not going to indulge in your fantasy world anymore.
BTW, burden of proof lays with the CTer crowd. That means you.
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 790 Location: Minneapolis MN / Houston TX
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #204 on Apr 12, 2007, 4:26pm »
I didn't know CT was an especially derogatory term, since it stands for "Conspiracy Theorist". Nothing about that term insinuates anything good or bad. PAN, or "Pro-Apollo-Nutter," on the other hand, is offensive. Can you see the difference? You are a CT. We are not necessarily supporters of the administration.
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 3,492 Location: Olympia
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #205 on Apr 12, 2007, 5:30pm »
In fact, I'd say a majority of us aren't. Even if I were, my support would be wearing thin right now. I don't want my boyfriend to be in Iraq for my birthday two years in a row!
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #206 on Apr 12, 2007, 9:33pm »
FEMA is correct in stating that the central core - topped by the transmission tower - began to collapse first. Before the perimeter.
NIST ignores this evidence. They had to, because it destroys their theory that collapse initiated at the perimeter, not at the core.
NIST did not ignore FEMA's report, they started out with FEMA's report. The trouble with FEMSA's report is that when NIST started to compare it to the evidence thay had collected between the time that FEMA did it's report and NIST did theirs, the FEMA conclusions were no longer supported and so NIST had to reject the hypothesis that FEMA had used. Had the FEMA report been right by the evedence that NIST had, the conclusions would have been the same. The evidence showed however, that unlike FEMA's conclusions, the floor connectors didn't fail prior to the collapse, but after, thus FEMA was wrong.
That's not a faulting of FEMA though, they just didn't have the time or resources of NIST. They did a quick study on what they had because people were demanding answers and came to a conclusion based on the evidence they were able to find out in the short time period they were given. NIST had better resources, more time and had access to more evidence because more images and video of the event had become available from various people who were taking images of the towers. With more time to model the collapse, do the fire testing and study the remains, NIST was able to reject FEMA's initial conculsion based on new evidence and test other Hypothesis.
Saying that they are wrong because they don't support FEMA's report is just silly.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #207 on Apr 12, 2007, 9:44pm »
We talk about the fireproofing of the floor system assembly . If NIST have test them with the foam as mentioned in Lenbrazil post ,so they assume it was mostly intact.
Not really. NIST didn't know how much survived. The evidence, based on the direct fire damage to the steel, was that a lot was destroyed, but since they didn't know excatly how much, but testing for the "best case senario" ie were it all survived, you can say that a result where any of the fireproofing was destroyed, would be worse than your test. Your test would show the best result possible. Since the test showed that the floors would have sagged to points where they would have collapsed the building when the fireproofing was intact, they can say easy enough that they would have without the fireproofing, just faster.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #208 on Apr 12, 2007, 11:29pm »
Quote:
We talk about the fireproofing of the floor system assembly . If NIST have test them with the foam as mentioned in Lenbrazil post ,so they assume it was mostly intact.
Not really. NIST didn't know how much survived. The evidence, based on the direct fire damage to the steel, was that a lot was destroyed, but since they didn't know excatly how much, but testing for the "best case senario" ie were it all survived, you can say that a result where any of the fireproofing was destroyed, would be worse than your test. Your test would show the best result possible. Since the test showed that the floors would have sagged to points where they would have collapsed the building when the fireproofing was intact, they can say easy enough that they would have without the fireproofing, just faster.
You probably miss my other post previous to that reply. The tests were done with.75 inch of SFRM which represent the condition which the floor support system assembly was originally designed. The upgraded insulation was equivalent to a uniform thickness of 2.2 inch which represent the existing condition of fireproofing thickness. So the time of response before the sagging occur with 2.2 inch of fireproofing insulation must be more greater than NIST results.
So the author is right when he said NIST used test which not represented the existing condition of the floor system assembly but were based as they were originally disigned before the upgrade of the fire proofing insulation of the floors assembly.
details in section 2.3 Floors Assembly Fire Resistance
Re: Is she a CT's best friend, or worst enemy? « Reply #209 on Apr 13, 2007, 7:30am »
Quote:
That's because it didn't make any sense. 3onthetree is so angry at the giant, ultrasecret (except when the conspirators casually admit it on television) conspiracy, and us brainwashed "government loyalists", he's getting incoherent.
Ok I'll pay that. There was a time I could watch the nightly news or current affairs shows and just laugh, I lost my sense of humor towards them during the war on/of terror coverage. Now I probably do tend to get angry at the giant.
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Ok I'll pay that. There was a time I could watch the nightly news or current affairs shows and just laugh, I lost my sense of humor towards them during the war on/of terror coverage. Now I probably do tend to get angry at the giant.