Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #61 on Nov 26, 2007, 7:45pm »
"Reading a study" is a more rational choice than trying some salt and some sugar yourself?
EDIT: It would seem to me that relying on the words of others will never prove something to you the way that experiencing it yourself will. You may intellectually know that sugar and salt taste differently, but until you try it yourself you won't know what the two tastes are, or what exactly the difference between the two is. You certainly won't know what salt actually tastes like from a study.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
wdmundt Guest
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #62 on Nov 26, 2007, 7:53pm »
I'll bring this one home on my side:
I can taste the difference between salt and sugar. Many studies have shown us much about the human ability to taste. It does not require a leap of faith for me to believe that I can tell the difference between salt and sugar. I can prove, if asked, that I can tell the difference - by taste alone - between salt and sugar.
As a human, you can't tell the difference between an act of a deity and an act of random chance. You may believe you can, but if asked to prove it with a rational test, you will fail.
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #63 on Nov 26, 2007, 7:54pm »
Quote:
EDIT: It would seem to me that relying on the words of others will never prove something to you the way that experiencing it yourself will. You may intellectually know that sugar and salt taste differently, but until you try it yourself you won't know what the two tastes are, or what exactly the difference between the two is.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #64 on Nov 26, 2007, 8:01pm »
Quote:
As a human, you can't tell the difference between an act of a deity and an act of random chance. You may believe you can, but if asked to prove it with a rational test, you will fail.
Yes I can tell the difference, and it is something very akin to the sense of taste. It is simply something that's indescribable without experiencing it. You cannot describe how salt tastes without comparing it to things that aren't quite the same as salt. No one will ever know, from your description, what salt tastes like. They have to taste it themselves, and when they do they will see that your description, while the best you could do, was not quite the same thing. I can come close to describing how feeling the spirit of God feels by comparing it to similar sensations, but they are not the same, and the difference will elude you until you experience it for yourself.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
wdmundt Guest
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #65 on Nov 26, 2007, 8:13pm »
I "get a feeling" when Obi Wan tells Luke to use The Force as he is approaching the exhaust shaft (most notably when the score changes from the attack theme to the romantic theme) in "Star Wars." Obi Wan is not real. The attack on the Death Star is not real.
I "get a feeling" on New Year's Day. New Year's Day is just another day on the calender. There is nothing special about it. But it has a feeling.
I am still frightened when poor Ben Gardner's head falls out of the shark-bitten hole in the bottom of his boat in "Jaws." The shark is not real. Ben is not a real person.
Humans are very capable of feeling things that are not real.
Joined: Apr 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,820 Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #66 on Nov 26, 2007, 8:31pm »
But you can break down salt into its molecular properties. You can take pictures of salt. See how it's made. Pick it up. Put in on your french fries. Taste it. Put in on a wound (ouch!). Break it up into little pieces. Store it in your cupboard. Maybe salt isn't a good comparison...
You can't see God. Take pictures of him. Pick him up. Taste him. Put him on your french fries. Put him in your wound . Break him up into little pieces. Store him in your cupboard.
Joined: Apr 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,820 Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #67 on Nov 26, 2007, 8:33pm »
I am still frightened when poor Ben Gardner's head falls out of the shark-bitten hole in the bottom of his boat in "Jaws." The shark is not real. Ben is not a real person.
Humans are very capable of feeling things that are not real.
I'm scared of going outside in the dark after watching a Zombie movie...
Moonman: "I also challenge NASA to flight around the moon on any of their next shuttle missions. They don't need to land on it, just fly around it."
wdmundt Guest
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #68 on Nov 26, 2007, 9:56pm »
Or werewolves. I think they were my great fear as a kid. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere in rural Iowa. It was easy to imagine that there was something out there in the dark at night.
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 3,492 Location: Olympia
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #69 on Nov 27, 2007, 1:25am »
My best friend, who grew up in Hawaii and whose mother still lives there, is terrified of pleiosaurs. She knows they've been extinct for millions of years. However, when she's out swimming in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, she believes that, if there were still pleiosaurs anywhere, that's where they'd be, and they're obviously going to kill her and eat her. It's a completely irrational fear, and she knows it. However, she still hasn't seen Jaws and she's never going to, because she doesn't need an additional irrational fear when she's participating in an activity she really loves--and she knows sharks exist!
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #70 on Nov 27, 2007, 12:58pm »
Quote:
Quote:
EDIT: It would seem to me that relying on the words of others will never prove something to you the way that experiencing it yourself will. You may intellectually know that sugar and salt taste differently, but until you try it yourself you won't know what the two tastes are, or what exactly the difference between the two is.
Then why are you so avidly pro-Apollo?
If you're volunteering to ship me up to the moon to see for myself I'll take you up on the offer in a picosecond.
Apollo actually illustrates what I'm talking about - I can't go there myself, or experience it myself, so I can't have more than an intellectual understanding of what it was like for those astronauts to be on the moon.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #71 on Nov 27, 2007, 1:03pm »
Do any of you feel there is a difference between fear or other strong emotions we feel in a movie theater and emotions we feel in real life? Do you think you would feel a different sort of fear if you actually came face to face with a real severed head rather than just watching Jaws? There is a difference. No matter how terrified we might be in a movie theater we are at some level aware that it is only a movie. We react to it differently than we would react to encountering these sorts of things in real life.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #72 on Nov 27, 2007, 1:04pm »
Quote:
But you can break down salt into its molecular properties. You can take pictures of salt. See how it's made. Pick it up. Put in on your french fries. Taste it. Put in on a wound (ouch!). Break it up into little pieces. Store it in your cupboard. Maybe salt isn't a good comparison...
You can't see God. Take pictures of him. Pick him up. Taste him. Put him on your french fries. Put him in your wound . Break him up into little pieces. Store him in your cupboard.
You're somewhat missing the point. If someone refused to taste salt, would they know what it tasted like? Could you accurately describe it to them?
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
wdmundt Guest
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #73 on Nov 27, 2007, 3:17pm »
When can test the attributes of salt so that we can all have a shared understanding of what salt is. We can't do the same for God.
Quote:
Apollo actually illustrates what I'm talking about - I can't go there myself, or experience it myself, so I can't have more than an intellectual understanding of what it was like for those astronauts to be on the moon.
It does not in any way illustrate your point - because it is a different argument. Do I know what it was like to walk on the moon? No. I'd have to go there myself to know that. Do I believe men went to the moon - based on rational evidence? Yes. False analogy.
Quote:
There is a difference. No matter how terrified we might be in a movie theater we are at some level aware that it is only a movie. We react to it differently than we would react to encountering these sorts of things in real life.
Yes, we know the movie is not real. How do you know your similar feelings are produced by something that is real?
Jason, how do you know for sure the feeling you get from God isn't really a happy feeling from Satan that is corrupting you?
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: The War on Christmas « Reply #74 on Nov 27, 2007, 3:47pm »
Quote:
When can test the attributes of salt so that we can all have a shared understanding of what salt is. We can't do the same for God.
But you can't really know what salt tastes like without tasting it. The purely intellectual understanding of what salt is is fundamentally different from the experience of tasting salt.
And we could all have a shared understanding of God - but we choose not to.
Quote:
Yes, we know the movie is not real. How do you know your similar feelings are produced by something that is real? Jason, how do you know for sure the feeling you get from God isn't really a happy feeling from Satan that is corrupting you?
How do you know the difference between a dream and reality? You know because dreams and reality are fundamentally different on a basic level. A dream might fool you while you're experiencing it, but once you're awake the difference is literally night and day. It is possible for people to convince themselves that some other feeling was in fact God, but the false feeling and the real experience are fundamentally different. Experience does help in discerning these differences, and humans do have the capability to rationalize almost anything away if they wish to, but the basic difference is there.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
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