Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 3,492 Location: Olympia
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #45 on Feb 14, 2008, 4:30pm »
I was taught that there'd be eternal hellfire for not believing in God, and I assure you that I'm not the only one. In fact, my father's religion of choice and the religion in which he was raised, though the same in many ways, believe that everyone who espouses the other will end up in Hell for their beliefs. And I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm going to burn in Hell for the sin of seeing God differently.
It strikes me, in fact, that--and this is not universal, I know--a lot of people tone down their beliefs of what Hell is actually like in order to make their God sound like less of a jerk when they're describing Him to other people. In other words, when they're trying to make their God sound like He wouldn't hurt His children, Hell is just being without his presence. However, when they're trying to sway you from your evil, sinning ways, He's all about the Hellfire. I've heard people espouse both beliefs.
You guys may honestly believe what you say about what Hell is like. But don't pretend that it's how all Christians see it, because that simply isn't true.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #46 on Feb 14, 2008, 4:43pm »
I'm not pretending anything. Many Christians do believe differently about the nature of Hell, yes. In fact, I was a bit surprised that PhantomWolf's and my own position on the subject turned out to be so similar.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #47 on Feb 14, 2008, 5:57pm »
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I was taught that there'd be eternal hellfire for not believing in God, and I assure you that I'm not the only one. In fact, my father's religion of choice and the religion in which he was raised, though the same in many ways, believe that everyone who espouses the other will end up in Hell for their beliefs. And I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm going to burn in Hell for the sin of seeing God differently.
It strikes me, in fact, that--and this is not universal, I know--a lot of people tone down their beliefs of what Hell is actually like in order to make their God sound like less of a jerk when they're describing Him to other people. In other words, when they're trying to make their God sound like He wouldn't hurt His children, Hell is just being without his presence. However, when they're trying to sway you from your evil, sinning ways, He's all about the Hellfire. I've heard people espouse both beliefs.
You guys may honestly believe what you say about what Hell is like. But don't pretend that it's how all Christians see it, because that simply isn't true.
With all respect Gilian, you were taught Catholic. I learned about Christianity directly from the Bible rather than just listening to what some church decides to teach. Actually what I believe is VERY different to most mainstream churches and extremely different to the Catholic Church. We do share the basics in common, but after that... I firmly believe that most churches have gone away from Biblical teaching for the most part, or base their teaching on incorrect interpretation and tradition so that it favours themselves. My beliefs are based about the Christianity found in Acts and the letters of Paul, pure and without ritual, doctrine, or other bindings, rather a faith in Christ as Saviour and a love of God that results in a desire to follow Him and do my best to please him.
Trust me, nothing frustrates me more than people who say they are Christian and yet seem to go out of their way to ignore huge chunks of the Bible so that it benefits themselves and allows them to put themselves into a "Holier" position than others. Christ preached against exactly that sort of behaviour. To me most churches today are the equivalent of the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees of Christ's time. They make up burdens for those that seek out God and put themselves into the positions of honour rather then humbling themselves before God.
Here's a quick run down my main what seem to be "unusual" beliefs (no entirely exclusive obviously)
- Mary, while a virgin, was likely a surrogate host to Jesus. (Based on the logic that inherited sin would still have come through Mary. Catholics get around this by having Mary as divine, but this just pushes the problem back a generation)
- Mary and Joseph did sleep together some time after Jesus' birth; she did not die a virgin (based on scripture, see Luke)
- All believers are saints
- All believers are priests
- There should be no human head of the church; this position is Christ's alone.
- There should be very little church hierarchy. All believers should be capable of taking leadership and teaching roles as are needed and required. Elders and Pastors are there to help and guide others in the church, not to rule or lord over them in a position of authority.
- God loves everyone unconditionally; no matter who he or she is, what he or she believes, or who (or what) they want to sleep with. To be like God, the Christian should do likewise. Those that preach hate of anyone are not in God's light, but preach an anti-Christ message.
- Hell is not a hot fiery place where the devil rules and tortures people, it is eternal separation from God and Satan and his followers are going to be suffering that separation just as much as the rest. It is our choice here on Earth if we choose God and eternity with Him, or that separation by rejecting him.
- Witnessing is to be done on a personal and meaningful level. It is not up to a Christian to tell people how to live, or to force a way of living onto them, but rather to show them how to live and to offer them the pathway to do so.
- A person cannot be born or forced to be a Christian. It is a personal and deep choice to follow Christ made by the person himself or herself. Simply going to church does not make someone a Christian.
- Forgiveness comes through true sorrow at the wrong and a real desire to change, not by telling a priest, giving money, or saying Hail Marys.
- Rituals and structured prayers are totally pointless; God listens to only prayer that is a true utterance from the heart. Prayer is an offering up to God and prepared prayer is stale and useless.
- Communion is purely symbolic and should be done only as a way to remember Christ's sacrifice.
- Being a Christian is a 7 day a week, 24 hours a day commitment, it isn't just 2 hours on Sunday.
- It is permissible for a Christian to do anything that is not illegal, but with that freedom the Christian should show restraint and not do things that could lead others into trouble.
- Humility is the Christian's greatest asset. A Christian should never seek glory, wealth, or status, but should give all things over to God and accept what he is given in return.
- The Church is the collection of believers, not a denomination or a building. Christianity as an Organised Religion these days is often harmful to the believers. The gathering of believers should be done for fellowship, guidance and learning, helping the believers to find their own way and to deepen their relationship with God. Churches should help people to discover God for themselves, to grow that relationship, not to tell them what to do and rule over them.
Gillian, I do see your point very well, but I also know that what people claim about God and what is the real truth are often poles apart. Unfortunately a lot of people project their own desires and beliefs onto God, building a God they want, rather than rebuilding themselves to what God wants. The results are usually tragic.
Jesus himself spoke about Hell more than any other subject, and in each case it was based about the concept of being removed from God's presence, having an existence that is outside of God, an eternity of nothing but oneself and the memories of what could have been. To me that would appear to be total agony and anguish, but it is still the result of a choice, the choice to reject God and live as the person themselves wants too. They live their life without God; they get an eternity without God, after all isn't that want they want? Why should God force them to live an eternity with Him when they have shown that don't want to?
I have come to this conclusion through many, many hours of study of the Bible. Time and time again God has always given people exactly what they want, even when it has been bad for them. Only very rarely does he directly intervene and punish. He warned Israel that if they turned from Him bad things would happen, He didn't make them happen, He didn't punish the Israelites; He just allowed things to naturally take their course without intervening. When they said, "we can live without you," He said, "fine, live without me," and bad things happened to them. When they said, "We need you and want to be with you," He said, "Good," and poured out blessing meaning good things happen.
The same with us, if we turn our backs on Him, why should we expect Him to stay with us and protect us from ourselves? We've told him we don't want him in our lives, so He gives us what we want, regardless of the consequences. In the end that consequence is a Separation from God, but that is our choice, not His, He desires that all will come to know Him, to choose Him and be with Him. But in the end, the separation that is Hell is the reward we choice, not a punishment forced on us, just because it is the boogie prize, and not at all beneficial, doesn't lessen the fact that it is and always will be, our own choice.
edited to clean it up a bit.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2008, 6:03pm by PhantomWolf »
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: Apr 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,820 Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #49 on Feb 14, 2008, 7:09pm »
PhantomWolf, have you ever investigated the Mennonite church? A lot of your positions are very similar to what they believe.
PW, your detailed description of your beliefs came across to me as heartfelt and straightforward. What drove me away from Catholicism was the ritual, and the fact that most Catholics I knew only practiced it fully two hours a week - and even then most people just went through the motions at church.
I can see the point about Physics. I don't understand why people would see God as keeping the mechanics of the worlds secret from us - I think he has given us the ability to understand the world through time and effort. That is of course if he exists. We know more than we do now about Physics than we did two hundred years ago. And back then we knew more than a thousand years ago.
As far as Hell goes, whose God determines whether you go or not? A Christian God? There are religious beliefs that have a God, but not Jesus or Satan.
I agree again that is is very important that you live your faith, not just hold a membership in a church.
Wow. My 'dumb poll' is actually producing some good, sensible explorations.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #50 on Feb 14, 2008, 10:05pm »
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PhantomWolf, have you ever investigated the LDS church? A lot of your positions are very similar to what we believe.
Yes I have, and I disagree with a lot of the things there too, the whole lost books, tribe of Israel going to the US, Angel appearing to Joseph Smith thing for a start.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #51 on Feb 14, 2008, 10:18pm »
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PhantomWolf, have you ever investigated the LDS church? A lot of your positions are very similar to what we believe.
Yes I have, and I disagree with a lot of the things there too, the whole lost books, tribe of Israel going to the US, Angel appearing to Joseph Smith thing for a start.
Well, an angel did appear to Joseph Smith, but it wasn't a whole tribe of Israel, and they didn't really go to the US (more like Central America) and I'm not sure what you mean by lost books.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #53 on Feb 14, 2008, 11:19pm »
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Well, an angel did appear to Joseph Smith
According to Joseph Smith. Of course Sun Myung Moon claims that Jesus appeared and spoke to him too.
I seem to recall John claiming he had an angel appear to him too. And didn't Paul claim that Jesus appeared and spoke to him?
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Close enough, either way there is zero evidence to back it up.
And I suppose you convinced yourself from archaelogical evidence that Jesus really existed before deciding to believe the New Testament account?
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The ones that Smith claims were given to him on golden tablets.
Ah, The Book of Mormon. "Hidden" is probably more appropriate than "lost". And the source document is generally referred to as "the golden plates", not tablets. Tablets might imply that they were pretty thick, when they were described as quite thin. And they probably weren't made of solid gold either, but a gold-copper alloy, hence "golden" instead of "gold".
I suppose you read the Book of Mormon before deciding to disagree with it?
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 3,492 Location: Olympia
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #54 on Feb 15, 2008, 1:28am »
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With all respect Gilian, you were taught Catholic.
Yes, I was. Which is convenient, because I can correct several of your misconceptions about Catholic belief.
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My beliefs are based about the Christianity found in Acts and the letters of Paul, pure and without ritual, doctrine, or other bindings, rather a faith in Christ as Saviour and a love of God that results in a desire to follow Him and do my best to please him.
My respect for Christianity comes when I read the gospels and ignore the letters of Paul in their entirety.
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Trust me, nothing frustrates me more than people who say they are Christian and yet seem to go out of their way to ignore huge chunks of the Bible so that it benefits themselves and allows them to put themselves into a "Holier" position than others. Christ preached against exactly that sort of behaviour. To me most churches today are the equivalent of the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees of Christ's time. They make up burdens for those that seek out God and put themselves into the positions of honour rather then humbling themselves before God.
Be fair; everyone ignores huge chunks of the Bible. Except, apparently, Ned Flanders, who even does the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Do you wear cotton-poly blends? You're ignoring Leviticus. (I can go dig out the verse, if you want a cite on that.) I do agree with you about Jesus, however. After all, He was the one who said that people shouldn't make a big deal about their beliefs in front of others.
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- Mary, while a virgin, was likely a surrogate host to Jesus. (Based on the logic that inherited sin would still have come through Mary. Catholics get around this by having Mary as divine, but this just pushes the problem back a generation)
Um, no. Mary was born without Original Sin, but not divine. According to Catholic belief (which you'll admit, I think, that I know very well, especially in that I seriously considered becoming a nun when I was young), Mary was human. A lot of non-Catholics go on about how Catholics worship her, but they are wrong. She is venerated, but that's different. She is being honoured for her motherhood, but she is not considered truly divine, just the mother of the divine.
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- Mary and Joseph did sleep together some time after Jesus' birth; she did not die a virgin (based on scripture, see Luke)
Yeah, absolutely right. He's mentioned as having siblings; I know.
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- God loves everyone unconditionally; no matter who he or she is, what he or she believes, or who (or what) they want to sleep with. To be like God, the Christian should do likewise. Those that preach hate of anyone are not in God's light, but preach an anti-Christ message.
Hallelujah!
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- Hell is not a hot fiery place where the devil rules and tortures people, it is eternal separation from God and Satan and his followers are going to be suffering that separation just as much as the rest. It is our choice here on Earth if we choose God and eternity with Him, or that separation by rejecting him.
"The outer darkness," right? That is, indeed, the only Biblical description of Hell; I do so wish fundamentalists would read that bit.
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- Witnessing is to be done on a personal and meaningful level. It is not up to a Christian to tell people how to live, or to force a way of living onto them, but rather to show them how to live and to offer them the pathway to do so.
Wow, the number of people I wish would believe that. But no, let's change the Constitution instead.
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- A person cannot be born or forced to be a Christian. It is a personal and deep choice to follow Christ made by the person himself or herself. Simply going to church does not make someone a Christian.
"By their acts ye shall know them"? Catholics are big on works being more important than predestination. I know Protestants (used by me as a generic term for any church whose origins are in Catholicism, not the Orthodox Church, and which is fewer than 1000 years old, give or take) who pick on the Catholics for it, saying that works aren't all that important. Personally, I think Jesus would rather have a person going around doing good than going around telling other people to believe in Him without working all that hard about doing good.
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- Forgiveness comes through true sorrow at the wrong and a real desire to change, not by telling a priest, giving money, or saying Hail Marys.
In Confession, a priest cannot give absolution unless there is general repentance on the part of the petitioner. Now, it is assuredly true that a priest cannot say that for sure, especially not in a parish as big as the one I grew up in. However, the priest is considered, during Confession, a surrogate for God. You are confessing your sins to Him, not the priest; the priest is there because you need someone to talk to you, and if you are only hearing God on the inside, it's easier to ignore. Further, "giving money" hasn't been a way to receive absolution for centuries.
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- It is permissible for a Christian to do anything that is not illegal, but with that freedom the Christian should show restraint and not do things that could lead others into trouble.
Actually, that's a major tenet of my faith as well, most frequently summed up as "Do what you will an it harm none." There's also the ever-popular Threefold Law--"Whatever you do, for good or evil, will come back to you threefold."
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- Humility is the Christian's greatest asset. A Christian should never seek glory, wealth, or status, but should give all things over to God and accept what he is given in return.
Somebody's got to do it. In a democracy, at very least, somebody's got to make the effort to seek the status of an elected office in order for anyone to fill it at all. Isn't it more important that a good person hold that office? I also think it's justifiable to be proud of your accomplishments, which some people think is against humility, but which I think is just normal.
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Gillian, I do see your point very well, but I also know that what people claim about God and what is the real truth are often poles apart. Unfortunately a lot of people project their own desires and beliefs onto God, building a God they want, rather than rebuilding themselves to what God wants. The results are usually tragic.
None of us can know the real truth about God. Not if God is worth the name. We all see God in our own image. How I see Him (Her, in my case) is different than how even one of my good friends, with whom I see almost completely eye-to-eye about religion, sees Her. The way you see Jesus, whom you see as divine, comes from your interpretation of the Bible. The way my father came to see Him did, too, and my father converted to Catholicism.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #56 on Feb 15, 2008, 11:54am »
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People do that right now without any "help" from any god.
Do they? How do they know God isn't helping them?
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since people can be good without the interference of religion, then what is the purpose of religion?
To assist people in doing good, of course. Sure you could live a saintly life just by yourself, but for those of us who aren't quite perfect yet a support group is a real help.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #57 on Feb 15, 2008, 6:48pm »
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Do they? How do they know God isn't helping them?
So even a person who has absolutely no beliefs in any type of god, if he is a good person, god still takes the "credit"???
Does that really seem "right" to you??
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To assist people in doing good, of course.
"To assist"?? What about those who can be good without any "reward"? (ie. eternal life) In my opinion, those people are "good" for the right reason, because they want to be good. Not because if they are good, they get pie in the sky when they die.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 5,579 Location: Terra / Solomani Rim 1827
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #58 on Feb 15, 2008, 7:22pm »
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So even a person who has absolutely no beliefs in any type of god, if he is a good person, god still takes the "credit"???
Whether they believe God is helping them or not is irrelevent to the question of whether He really is helping them, isn't it? I mean, if I don't believe in gravity that doesn't mean I can just flap my arms and fly away. You don't necessarily have to be a good person to receive some benefit from God's existence either, "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." And God doesn't "take the credit". If someone choses to do good they are the one who benefits the most.
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"To assist"?? What about those who can be good without any "reward"? (ie. eternal life) In my opinion, those people are "good" for the right reason, because they want to be good. Not because if they are good, they get pie in the sky when they die.
When did I mention a reward? I said the right reason for a church to exist is to help people. Many people in churches are assisting others because they want to do good, and not because they expect a reward. In fact I would say most of the people I know in my own Church fit this pattern.
I am certain, too, that God wants us to learn to do the right thing because it is right. In fact I'm sure I said that very thing earlier in this thread.
However, if it takes the promise of a reward to get people on the path to learning for themselves that helping others is good, then what harm will it do to offer one? In the end God will be able to tell who was only acting good because he wanted the lollipop. The person who learns that he likes helping others will still receive the benefit of that lesson even if when he started out he was just seeking a reward.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #59 on Feb 16, 2008, 7:23pm »
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Whether they believe God is helping them or not is irrelevant to the question of whether He really is helping them, isn't it? I mean, if I don't believe in gravity that doesn't mean I can just flap my arms and fly away.
That is an irrational comparison.
Believing that god helps people wither they believe it or not is just that, your belief. It CANNOT be demonstrated by any evidence to actually exist.
Gravity is an attractive force between objects possessing mass. This force can be objectively measured, and certainly can be demonstrated by evidence to actually exist.
How you can think that one is in any way similar to the other is beyond me.
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...if it takes the promise of a reward to get people on the path to learning for themselves that helping others is good, then what harm will it do to offer one?
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I learned about Christianity directly from the Bible rather than just listening to what some church decides to teach. Actually what I believe is VERY different to most mainstream churches and extremely different to the Catholic Church. We do share the basics in common, but after that... I firmly believe that most churches have gone away from Biblical teaching for the most part, or base their teaching on incorrect interpretation and tradition so that it favours themselves. My beliefs are based about the Christianity found in Acts and the letters of Paul, pure and without ritual, doctrine, or other bindings, rather a faith in Christ as Saviour and a love of God that results in a desire to follow Him and do my best to please him.![[avatar]](http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/ginniegatrit/apollo11.jpg "[avatar]")
