Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Nov 13, 2009 14:12:46 GMT -4
... but very few are as bad as fm appears to be. Or pretends to be.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 13, 2009 14:35:01 GMT -4
I'd just like to throw in a quick thank you for all of you have explained all of this. If nothing else, you have helped give me a clearer understanding of all this.
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Post by fm on Nov 13, 2009 14:36:30 GMT -4
drewid: 1) Here's from the wiki viewpoint. 2) add the hotter bits of the belts OMG LOOKIT RADIATION (that was sarcasm by the way). 3) And the extent of the belts, the less dangerous bits.
Ahhhh you see, now we are talking! Thank you! This is what we can work froml Once you confirm that the inclination, the size and shape of the belts are correct, you can, like I said, mark the times with the distance the craft traveled from the Earth and its TLI's... the point where Apollo was on the correct plane of the moon for orbit.
Maybe you can even add all those planes and such that J.T. had in his drawing if it doesnt clutter it up too much.
I think at that point, besides knowing what the radiation intensity levels of the belts were at that time, we have something that will demonstrate once and for all how long the trip took before Apollo was a safe distance from the VABs!
I just dont understand why NASA didnt do this already....
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 13, 2009 14:52:22 GMT -4
This is what we can work fromWhat do you mean by "we?" We already have sufficient evidence that the translunar trajectory performed as claimed. You are the one being lazy and obstinate. Once you confirm...Nope. You are the one claiming that the spacecraft was "in the belts" longer than was published. You have accepted absolutely no burden of proof for that claim. How about you take this drawing and prove that your claim is correct? ...that the inclination, the size and shape of the belts are correctThese are concepts you've demonstrated you wouldn't understand even if they fell on you. ...we have something that will demonstrate once and for all how long the trip took before Apollo was a safe distance from the VABs!The geometry has been painstakingly explained to you already several times using several different methods. You don't get to pretend you're applying a reasonable standard of skepticism. I just dont understand why NASA didnt do this already...Because NASA doesn't need pretty pictures in order to plot orbits; they do it using the mathematical abstractions. And because reasonable people are convinced by far less.
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Post by Data Cable on Nov 13, 2009 15:23:17 GMT -4
I was thinking a cross section of the VABs on the orbital plane would get the point across that there are indeed "gaps" in the belts on that plane.
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Post by fiveonit on Nov 13, 2009 15:31:00 GMT -4
Once you confirm...Nope. You are the one claiming that the spacecraft was "in the belts" longer than was published. You have accepted absolutely no burden of proof for that claim. How about you take this drawing and prove that your claim is correct? AMEN!!I don't mind to help educate people on the subject of Apollo and the moon landings. But it absolutley boggles my mind how hoaxers have this idea in their head that it's OUR job to prove THEM wrong. If you think Apollo was a hoax, then the burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders and no one else.
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Post by Ginnie on Nov 13, 2009 16:31:21 GMT -4
I thought it was fm's friend who was a HB?
Why do so many threads start out like that - "I have a friend who doesn't believe the Apollo missions were real. Please help me convince..."
-and it turns out that the OP is the real HB.
I've searched the web far and wide for an animation of the orbits and the journey through the Van Allen belts but haven't found one so far. To create one from scratch, utilizing data from transcripts would be an enormous task. Plotting exactly where and when in space the spaceship was on its journey would take a lot of research and time. I think the Jay's Donut illustration does a good quick job instead.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Nov 13, 2009 17:12:34 GMT -4
I thought it was fm's friend who was a HB? Actually, it was swank23 who had the alleged friend. Fm didn't show up until page 5, when he started the whole all over again. I've searched the web far and wide for an animation of the orbits and the journey through the Van Allen belts but haven't found one so far. To create one from scratch, utilizing data from transcripts would be an enormous task. Plotting exactly where and when in space the spaceship was on its journey would take a lot of research and time. I think the Jay's Donut illustration does a good quick job instead. I think Apollo by the Numbers may have enough data for me to figure out the orbital elements for each of the Apollo translunar trajectories. If so, I should be able to reproduce the orbits without too much trouble. I don't have the means to animate, but I should be able to produce a table of data points and graphically show the orbit from different perspectives (e.g. top, side, end). If I'm able to do this, perhaps someone else can take it upon themselves to generate an animation.
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Post by rob260259 on Nov 13, 2009 17:23:53 GMT -4
Ahhhh you see, now we are talking! Please state that you are not FoosMasoos FM...
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Post by drewid on Nov 13, 2009 17:42:55 GMT -4
I thought it was fm's friend who was a HB? Actually, it was swank23 who had the alleged friend. Fm didn't show up until page 5, when he started the whole all over again. I've searched the web far and wide for an animation of the orbits and the journey through the Van Allen belts but haven't found one so far. To create one from scratch, utilizing data from transcripts would be an enormous task. Plotting exactly where and when in space the spaceship was on its journey would take a lot of research and time. I think the Jay's Donut illustration does a good quick job instead. I think Apollo by the Numbers may have enough data for me to figure out the orbital elements for each of the Apollo translunar trajectories. If so, I should be able to reproduce the orbits without too much trouble. I don't have the means to animate, but I should be able to produce a table of data points and graphically show the orbit from different perspectives (e.g. top, side, end). If I'm able to do this, perhaps someone else can take it upon themselves to generate an animation. No worries with doing that. It'd be good to get the speed visible as well. Hmmm, surely someone must have done this already? Perhaps the guys who coded "Orbiter"?
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Post by Ginnie on Nov 13, 2009 18:17:34 GMT -4
I thought it was fm's friend who was a HB? Actually, it was swank23 who had the alleged friend. Fm didn't show up until page 5, when he started the whole all over again. I've searched the web far and wide for an animation of the orbits and the journey through the Van Allen belts but haven't found one so far. To create one from scratch, utilizing data from transcripts would be an enormous task. Plotting exactly where and when in space the spaceship was on its journey would take a lot of research and time. I think the Jay's Donut illustration does a good quick job instead. I think Apollo by the Numbers may have enough data for me to figure out the orbital elements for each of the Apollo translunar trajectories. If so, I should be able to reproduce the orbits without too much trouble. I don't have the means to animate, but I should be able to produce a table of data points and graphically show the orbit from different perspectives (e.g. top, side, end). If I'm able to do this, perhaps someone else can take it upon themselves to generate an animation. My apologies to swank23 then. BTW he hasn't posted here since Oct. 10...
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Post by drewid on Nov 13, 2009 19:37:18 GMT -4
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Post by Count Zero on Nov 13, 2009 20:35:18 GMT -4
I think Apollo by the Numbers may have enough data for me to figure out the orbital elements for each of the Apollo translunar trajectories. If so, I should be able to reproduce the orbits without too much trouble. I don't have the means to animate, but I should be able to produce a table of data points and graphically show the orbit from different perspectives (e.g. top, side, end). If I'm able to do this, perhaps someone else can take it upon themselves to generate an animation. Bob, I think your model of a free-return trajectory here is perfectly adequate, since (IIRC) the first four missions used a FRT to get there (before making LOI). Your table shows that 4-hours after TLI, the spacecraft would already be >63,000km out - ~10,000 past the outer belts. Thus, if Apollo had flown through the thickest part of the belt, it would have taken 3-3.5 hours to transit. Since it actually only clipped the edge of the belts, 1 hour is a reasonable ballpark number for the VAB transit time.
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 13, 2009 21:58:23 GMT -4
I don't mind to help educate people on the subject of Apollo and the moon landings. But it absolutley boggles my mind how hoaxers have this idea in their head that it's OUR job to prove THEM wrong. And note how fm's requests have all been predicated on his ignorance du jour. He's gone through thinking the Van Allen belts covered the whole Earth equally at the poles, through thinking trajectories to the Moon had to be straight lines, etc. All his "skepticism" at any given point is simply throwing, in knee-jerk fashion, whatever obstacle seems to fit his incomplete, incorrect understanding at the moment. There's no rhyme or reason to his demands. He's just trolling.
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Post by drewid on Nov 14, 2009 7:05:39 GMT -4
I think Apollo by the Numbers may have enough data for me to figure out the orbital elements for each of the Apollo translunar trajectories. If so, I should be able to reproduce the orbits without too much trouble. I don't have the means to animate, but I should be able to produce a table of data points and graphically show the orbit from different perspectives (e.g. top, side, end). If I'm able to do this, perhaps someone else can take it upon themselves to generate an animation. Bob, I think your model of a free-return trajectory here is perfectly adequate, since (IIRC) the first four missions used a FRT to get there (before making LOI). Your table shows that 4-hours after TLI, the spacecraft would already be >63,000km out - ~10,000 past the outer belts. Thus, if Apollo had flown through the thickest part of the belt, it would have taken 3-3.5 hours to transit. Since it actually only clipped the edge of the belts, 1 hour is a reasonable ballpark number for the VAB transit time. Oh that's fantastic. That certainly is accurate enough to use for most of the curve. I take it the curve of the ellispse in that diagram is seen from the normal, perpendicular to the plane of the orbit? It'd be great to get the first four hours of teh curve filled in a bit more. What are the differences on trajectory in the later missions. I know 17 didn't use a FRT for instance, would the TLI stage have looked substantially different, or would it have only become apparent later in the curve? I like the idea of a plane slice of the belts through the orbit, it ought to be easyish to do, I do want the belts to be better represented though. At the it still gives the impression that some bits are totally safe and other bits are instantly fatal with no real graduation in between. I can see in my head what I want to do with that, It's just a matter of figuring out how to get the particles to do it with a reasonable degree of accuracy.
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