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Post by JayUtah on Mar 17, 2010 16:01:04 GMT -4
Er, yeah. I guess a T-shirt is in order.
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Post by openmindedskeptic on Mar 17, 2010 16:18:39 GMT -4
Good points. I see the point about how the light reflected off of the astronaut would have only reflected a small amount of light onto the shadow, and this would not have been substantial enough to be visible in the picture (due to the calibration of the camera). That's really the same reason that the stars aren't visible. As for the C rock, I figured that NASA could have done some air-brushing. Then again, this C is probably nothing but a photographic blemish. Someone asked why Capricorn One got me thinking. Well, to be honest, I take the 9/11 conspiracy theory MUCH more seriously than I take any possible Moon hoax conspiracy. There is much stronger evidence that the Bush admin worked with al Queda operatives to orchestrate 9/11. The NASA-Nazi connection was pretty clear too, and the Nazis managed to do a good job keeping the Holocaust quiet - most German citizens had no idea that it was going on, even though thousands of people were carrying it out right under their noses. Some of the most evil men that ever walked the face of the Earth were involved with NASA and making those lunar missions possible ... not much of a "giant leap for mankind" if you ask me. It was more of a technological feat. If the Nazis won WW2, the swastika would have been on the Moon instead. The NASA-Nazi connection is the main reason that so many non-whites are suspicious of NASA. I'm white, as it turns out, but I can clearly understand why over 50% of African Americans do not trust NASA, and believed that the lunar missions were staged. On 4 November 2002, the Italian daily "Corriere della sera" reported that 68% of the non-white US population do not believe NASA. Sorry about all my red herrings. I figured that the lunar missions could have been staged, and trusting the government's honesty all the time would be naive, so the possibility grabbed my attention, and I started looking into it. Siebel is a shady character; is there any way that I can contact him directly to challenge his claims? Does he have a website? Two more issues popped up: 1. Is there any validity to the claim that the photographic film itself would have been ruined by the radiation of space? 2. Didn't the Russians manage to successfully place retroreflectors on the Moon using probes and robotics? 3. Astronaut Charles Conrad, Jr, Skylab-2 commander, smiles happily for the camera after a hot bath in the shower in the crew quarters of the Orbital Workshop of the Skylab space station. Was that a towel in the upper right corner of the picture? Was it hanging down as it would on Earth? Gravity? mix.msfc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/HIGH/7042918.jpg
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Post by Jason Thompson on Mar 17, 2010 16:41:31 GMT -4
The NASA-Nazi connection was pretty clear too, and the Nazis managed to do a good job keeping the Holocaust quiet - most German citizens had no idea that it was going on, even though thousands of people were carrying it out right under their noses. Concentration camps were not a secret. Most people did not realise, or refused to believe, that mechanised extermination was taking place. As soon as the camps began to be liberated by the Allies this secret was blown wide open. They kept it quiet for three years at the very most. With the Moon hoax you are talking about a secret kept for decades. I dispute that most vigorously. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Nazi rocket scientists were in any way 'evil'. The only controversy is the use of slave labour in the Mittelwerk V2 production facility. Wernher von Braun was a Nazi and a member of the SS, but he wasn't given a great deal of choice in that. It was a case of 'join the party or get shipped off somewhere else'. At one point he was arrested simply for proposing the use of a V2 style rocket for space research. In the minds of his superiors that constituted treason, since he was not focusing 100% on the war effort. he was arrested, and a personal intervention by the head of the SS, Himmler himself, was required to secure his release. You simply cannot assume that 'Nazi = evil'. Most people who knew Wernher von Braun, which included a number who had lost family and friends in the war and as a result of his rocket work, found him to be a very nice person, with no ideological relations to the Nazi party at all. The man lived, in the 1930s and 40s, in a dictatorship, and worked on a weapon of war. In that latter part he is no different from a very large number of English, French, American and Russian citizens, and no-one calls them evil. www.moonmovie.comNo. The claim that photographic film is fogged by x-rays is certainly true, but they then fall down on actually identifying the x-ray intensity, energy and flux density in space, and just assume it must be high. The two lunokhod rovers had retroreflectors on them. One did not work, the other did but not as well as the apollo ones. In addition, there is a long trail of evidence detailing the design, construction and launch of those machines, and none for any other method of putting them there. Simlarly with apollo, there is not one schred of evidence for the retroreflectors being placed any other way than by the astronauts. It doesn't matter if they could have been placed by any other means, it matters what the evidence says. Was it, or did it just happen to be in a position that made it look like it was at the time the picture was taken? You cannot identify what it is, nor can you conclusively say it is hanging. What is your point? Are you contending Skylab was faked too?
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Post by tedward on Mar 17, 2010 17:12:46 GMT -4
The NASA-Nazi connection was pretty clear too, and the Nazis managed to do a good job keeping the Holocaust quiet - most German citizens had no idea that it was going on, even though thousands of people were carrying it out right under their noses. Some of the most evil men that ever walked the face of the Earth were involved with NASA and making those lunar missions possible ... not much of a "giant leap for mankind" if you ask me. Snipy snip snip. The Nazi regime was very clever. Among the many things it did was send messages, do this or there might be something unpleasant in store for you. Hitler had a sort of management style that pitted his subordinates against each other, that also had an effect as people would pull the rug from under other department heads to make themselves look good to Hitler. It was a dangerous time. Of course people were patriotic and driven also, do you include them under your Nazi umbrella? I think that that given the choice of going somewhere you heard stories about or sign up to the party, many would sign up to the party.
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Post by banjomd on Mar 17, 2010 17:14:05 GMT -4
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Post by tedward on Mar 17, 2010 17:20:54 GMT -4
Sorry about all my red herrings. I figured that the lunar missions could have been staged, and trusting the government's honesty all the time would be naive, so the possibility grabbed my attention, and I started looking into it. Snippy snip snip snip I was blissfully unaware of the hoax proponents for years. Then I clocked the mumblings so looked a bit more. One of the things that stands out with Apollo is the people involved. Government and engineers and test pilots who are also very qualified and all of them driven. Above all else I believe they would have failed in public if that was their destiny. Then I look at the possibility of it being staged. Each time you look at what is required, the harder it is to see how it can be faked. Think it through. From an unfeasible sized vacuum chamber through to the communication network required to make it look good. Then the USSR looking on and also those very driven men I mentioned earlier. Who would have in all probability walked and talked if they thought that for one instance they would have to fake it.
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Post by chew on Mar 17, 2010 17:59:52 GMT -4
3. Astronaut Charles Conrad, Jr, Skylab-2 commander, smiles happily for the camera after a hot bath in the shower in the crew quarters of the Orbital Workshop of the Skylab space station. Was that a towel in the upper right corner of the picture? Was it hanging down as it would on Earth? Gravity? mix.msfc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/HIGH/7042918.jpgWhat about the rag that is floating to his right? What about the shower curtain that is floating all around him?
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Post by laurel on Mar 17, 2010 18:02:12 GMT -4
The NASA-Nazi connection is the main reason that so many non-whites are suspicious of NASA. I'm white, as it turns out, but I can clearly understand why over 50% of African Americans do not trust NASA, and believed that the lunar missions were staged. On 4 November 2002, the Italian daily "Corriere della sera" reported that 68% of the non-white US population do not believe NASA. How were these polls conducted? Were they internet polls?
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Mar 17, 2010 18:33:56 GMT -4
The NASA-Nazi connection was pretty clear too... I don't think there's a clear connection at all. Yes, many of the German scientists and engineers who came to the USA after WWII were ex-Nazi party members, but that was something they had to do in order to work on the German rocket program. For Von Braun, for instance, it was a marriage of convenience. He joined the party and in return he was able to pursue his dream of working on rockets. He had no particular interest in the party's philosophy or agenda. The worst thing he likely did was turn a blind eye to the fact that slave labor was being used to construct the V2 rockets, but there wasn't anything he could do about it anyway (it was not his decision and he had no control over it). When the rocket scientists came to America, NASA didn't even exist yet. Most of them worked on missiles for the US Army. NASA wasn't formed until 1958. By then, the Germans had been living and working in the US for thirteen years and were pretty far removed from their Nazi party past. NASA employed Von Braun and others foreign nationals because they were highly competent rocket engineers. The NASA to Nazi connection is very tenuous at most.
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Post by ka9q on Mar 17, 2010 19:09:49 GMT -4
Concentration camps were not a secret. Most people did not realise, or refused to believe, that mechanised extermination was taking place. As soon as the camps began to be liberated by the Allies this secret was blown wide open. The Nazi extermination camps certainly were secret, or at least the SS tried to keep them secret. Most were sited in occupied Poland precisely to keep ordinary Germans in the dark. There's relatively little on paper about the "final solution" from the top Nazi leadership, and what there is tends to be rather oblique and filled with euphemisms. But the larger point is that the camps quickly became public knowledge after the war. And even during the war there were a lot of signs, and anyone who wanted to follow them (at risk to themselves) could do so.
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Post by chew on Mar 17, 2010 19:37:29 GMT -4
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Post by ka9q on Mar 17, 2010 19:42:10 GMT -4
What about the rag that is floating to his right? What about the shower curtain that is floating all around him? Funny that, huh? I bet you've noticed, as I often have, that Apollo conspiracy theorists like to zoom in on something "suspicious" in a corner of a single photograph or frame of video and proclaim victory -- the Apollo missions were entirely faked! Some will come right out and say it: all they need is one faked photo to prove Apollo was a scam. Actually, well, I would think that finding one faked photo would mean...they've found one faked photo. But I suppose that keeping their eye on the big jackpot keeps them going after having their hundredth photo "anomaly" debunked. There are thousands more Apollo photographs to examine, and it only takes one... Rarely if ever is there an attempt to follow through on the implications of their conclusion. If the Apollo missions never went to the moon, then exactly what did happen? What about the thousands of other photographs and dozens of hours of video? How come they show astronauts and objects moving exactly as they should in a 1/6 g gravity field, something that Hollywood still can't get right even today? I'm especially fond of claims that like these that point to an object like a flag (or a towel) at one instant in time and claim that its behavior indicates the presence of air (or gravity). They invariably ignore the fact that the very same object unquestionably behaves just as it should in a vacuum (and/or low gravity, or weightlessness) just before and after the moment in question. Just what was going on? Was NASA pumping air in and out of the "soundstage"? Were they having trouble with their anti-gravity generator? These questions are never even explored, much less answered.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Mar 17, 2010 20:05:17 GMT -4
Er, yeah. I guess a T-shirt is in order. Well while not a technical Apollo issue, it is Apollo related, soo...... Well Done ajv
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Mar 17, 2010 20:22:34 GMT -4
As others have noted, not so much.
The German rocketry program was brought back as war booty, more or less, and the scientists were the intellectual property component. And, they didn't want to stick around in the smouldering remains of Europe, so they were happy to go to America and continue building rockets.
Honestly, there's as much relevance to the connection between von Braun and the Nazis as there is between von Braun and Satanism, and his tenuous connection to the founding of Scientilogy. Really. Before the war, von Braun was a member of an international club of rocketry hobbyists, a group which included Jack Parsons. He and Parsons exchanged letters for a while, but then von Brauns letters became intensely specific in their questions, and then he stopped writing back altogether.
Parsons, a buggering Satanist, was a founder of the rocket research group that became CalTech. He invented the JATO bottle. He also lost $10,000 and a girlfriend to L. Ron Hubbard, who took the money and girlfriend to Florida to "start a business." About a year later, he published his first (allegedly) non-fiction book, which included a lot of Parsons' ideas.
What does this have to do with the Nazi/NASA connection? Just as much as it has to do with itself.
By the way, Parsons has a crater on the moon named after him. It could be roughly described as a pimple on a wart on the moons backside.
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Post by gillianren on Mar 17, 2010 20:32:00 GMT -4
Someone asked why Capricorn One got me thinking. Well, to be honest, I take the 9/11 conspiracy theory MUCH more seriously than I take any possible Moon hoax conspiracy. You're aware that's an utter non sequitur, right? For reasons I've described, Capricorn One actually shows how difficult it would be to successfully hoax something like that. Anyone paying attention would surely notice that. Besides, even believing in one ridiculous (and it is) conspiracy theory doesn't necessarily, they keep telling us, mean you believe in all the ridiculous conspiracy theories. Than what? Than that my cat did? Because that part is true. Do you realize at all how ludicrous this is? I've heard Wernher Von Braun could be kind of a jerk, but would you like a list of people more evil than he? Because unless your list of "the most evil men that ever walked the face of the Earth" is a lot longer than mine, I think this would be time for you to start presenting evidence. And, naturally, you have details about the way the surveys were carried out. Because you may have noted that all the prominent HBs, at least so far as I've seen, are white guys. And if "over 50% of African Americans do not trust NASA and believed that the lunar missions were staged," surely I would have met a few of them when I was living in an area that, you know, had black people living in it. And if all the evidence were coming from the US government, you might have a point. What is naïve is assuming it is. He'd probably like you better if you spelled his name right. Certainly he's been mentioned enough in this thread for you to pick it up.
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