Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 1,368 Location: Canada
Re: photos on NASA don't make sense « Reply #1 on Sept 2, 2010, 12:49pm »
The pictures are taken from different angles and Schmitt moved around when he was taking them. If you read the relevant ALSJ page where Cernan and Schmitt are taking each other's pictures by the flag, it was difficult to get both the Earth and an astronaut in the photographs and it didn't always work when they tried it. http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17.alsepoff.html#1182518
"My feet they finally took root in the Earth, but I got me a nice little place in the stars, and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car..."
Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,011 Location: Wales
Re: photos on NASA don't make sense « Reply #4 on Sept 2, 2010, 4:38pm »
Often I have to alter my angle looking at a subject to get what I want in, in the back ground. Even down here on Earth the camera is used the same way, or should that be on the moon its used the same as here. Choices.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: photos on NASA don't make sense « Reply #5 on Sept 2, 2010, 5:43pm »
Have a look in Cernan's visor, you can see Schmitt's reflection. In 20385 he is merely crouching down, bending at the knees. In 20387 he is almost kneeling on the ground, and leaning well back at the same time, resulting in the camera being pointed up much higher than in 20385. You can see this in the image quite clearly too as in the first the camera is reasonably level with Cernan and the flag (Schmitt is up hill of them and thus higher) while in the second, the camera is clearly below Cernan looking up at both him and the flag, despite Schmitt still being on higher ground.) The only way to do this is to get down very low, and the TV footage of them taking these images (supplied by the rover) which is available on the ASLJ, shows Schmitt doing exactly that, dropping to his knees and bending backwards to take the shot. As a result, both shots are fully consistant with the the TV Footage.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Does this strike anyone else as weird? Either the earth is there or it's not...
Any thoughts?
G'day fflame, and welcome to Apollohoax.
Is it possible for you to have the two photos open and click back and forth between them? Once you do that a few times, I think you can see the difference in angle more clearly.
Having said that, I'd be curious to see how far out of frame the Earth is in photo 20385 - it can't be by much.
"Show us a photo of either the descent or the ascent rockets firing and the exhaust plume. And exactly how does a space craft fly when "The engine is NOT ON"" -Stelios at the DIF Google search this site
Re: photos on NASA don't make sense « Reply #9 on Sept 2, 2010, 10:57pm »
Yah. Focus on the flag, not on Cernan, in the blink comparison. And remember these weren't zoom lenses. Looking at the flag makes it very obvious how the camera moved in and rotated up...the "up" being the important part here.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 4,620 Location: Lost Deimos Moonbase
Re: photos on NASA don't make sense « Reply #10 on Sept 2, 2010, 10:57pm »
I was looking on Youtube for the footage of the photos and found them setting up the flag. It's rather interesting watching Cernan skip over to the side of the flag where the photos are taken as he overshoots his position and then spins about getting dragged several steps backwards before regaining his footing. It's a classic example of how weght/mass screwed up their ability to move normally with it clear that he pushes off with the normal force you'd use to move a large mass, but the due to the 1/6 weight goes too far and then has to try and stop the large mass from moving again, and not really the sort of thing that is possible to fake. Schmitt does it too earlier when he leaves the flag, and again when he turns to take the photos.
Here's the Video, Schmitt's first turn is at about 1 min in and Cernan's is at 1:44, while the photos are right at the end of it just before it cuts.
I will have to retract a little bit, Schmitt is actually downhill, not uphill and he does drop, but not as much as I thought he did. It must have been another mission where that happened, or perhaps I imagined it.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Schmitt... does drop, but not as much as I thought he did. It must have been another mission where that happened, or perhaps I imagined it.
You're probably thinking of the photo before these two, AS17-134-20384, which Gene Cernan took of Jack Schmitt with the earth very close to the end of the rod which runs along the top of the flag. Gene did get down low for that one, and both South Massif and Earth are out of focus.
Fflame: Do you go to the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal and read the captions for each photo and the appropriate place in the journal? Doing this often gives much more information than simply looking at the photos, as you can see from the above caption and its links.
If you don't know your way around there, click on the first link above (ALSJ) or at the bottom of every page here, then click on the mission you want, then Image Library to get the captions.
For anyone who is interested in the moonlandings, the ALSJ is a great place to spend many weeks browsing.
Don't criticize what you can't understand. Bob Dylan, The Times They Are A-Changin' (1963) Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. Edward R. Murrow (190865)
Have a look at these two NASA Apollo 17 photos: AS17-134-20385HR AS17-134-20387HR
Does this strike anyone else as weird? Either the earth is there or it's not... Any thoughts?
No, it's not at all weird to me -- a photographer since 1968, professional for 15 years, taught photography, analysed hundreds, if not thousands, of photos -- nor is it weird to others here, as you can see. It is standard practice for photographers to deliberately include or exclude items in the backgrounds of photos by simply changing the angles from which they are taken. The classic example would be a power pole "growing" out of someone's head.
Perhaps you don't understand how this can be so easily done with a wide-angle lens.
You want us to be nice, but I have to comment on your method of posting. Your thread title, in its broadest sense, implies that all Nasa photos don't make sense, and in that case is a little nonsensical, offensive and confrontational to those of us who know Apollo well and some of the subjects related to it, such as photography.
Wouldn't it have been a little more accurate and "nicer" of you to simply title the thread, "Query about two lunar surface photos."?
Maybe you think I'm getting too heavy about this, but if you hang around here long enough you'll see that you've used a typical technique of hoax-believers who are usually both ignorant about Apollo and pretty arrogant, and they make silly claims. We see it all the time.
Anyway, welcome to ApolloHoax. I hope you learn a lot here.
Don't criticize what you can't understand. Bob Dylan, The Times They Are A-Changin' (1963) Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. Edward R. Murrow (190865)
Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 1,368 Location: Canada
Re: photos on NASA don't make sense « Reply #14 on Sept 4, 2010, 12:36pm »
I'm not trying to be rude, but I have to wonder why someone posts a confrontational question like this and then doesn't bother to respond to the answers. Did Fflame really want explanations, or was this another hoax believer saying, "The photos look strange to me, therefore they were faked and there's no point in discussing it further"?
"My feet they finally took root in the Earth, but I got me a nice little place in the stars, and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car..."
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