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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 11:45:25 GMT -4
Apollo's fraudulence is quite obvious to medical personal who have paused and considered the details. The fact that astronauts Borman and Haise became sick as they did and never were appropriately "evaluated" demonstrates beyond question the bogus nature of these excursions to where, I know not. As a matter of fact, one may surmise none other than the primary Apollo doc, Charles Berry, was in on the fix. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 11:51:33 GMT -4
Apollo's fraudulence is quite obvious to medical personal who have paused and considered the details. The fact that astronauts Borman and Haise became sick as they did and never were appropriately "evaluated" demonstrates beyond question the bogus nature of these excursions to where, I know not. As a matter of fact, one may surmise none other than the primary Apollo doc, Charles Berry, was in on the fix. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged You make a number of bold statements in this paragraph, but do you have support for the claimed fact or anything other than your personal opinion to for your suspicions? For example, how about starting with a published article from a qualified medical professional that agrees with your claim that the medial conditions were not handled properly.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 12:02:30 GMT -4
I am a physician and lecturer in both physiology and biochemistry. I suggest all medical personal and others so interested take a look at the Apollo 8 and 13 mission transcripts and debriefings. Does one find anywhere anything that remotely resembles an appropriate evaluation of Borman and Haise? No. Borman with feverishness, diarrhea and vomiting in the cabin. The diarrhea in the cabin would of course be impossible to deal with for many reasons.
No evidence of an evaluation, no evidence for appropriate concerns as regards the welfare of others aboard the CMs and no evidence for the occurrence of an intelligent evaluation having occurred addressing the fallout of Borman's diarrhea pervading the cabin.
This is script. This is acting. This is very phony. And interestingly enough, the medical charge would be well aware, ergo, Charles Berry can be viewed as one of the colluders.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 6, 2011 12:47:17 GMT -4
Okay, let's do this right. How about you provide specific details, including why a reaction to Seconal was ignored by you in your various incarnations at BAUT.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 13:05:33 GMT -4
Their is no reason to conclude Borman's symptoms were related to taking seconal. When is taking seconal typically associated with feverishness and diarrhea? The conclusion said to have been reached as presented in some popular accounts such as Chaikin's features the angle that Berry and his colleagues decided this was viral gastroenteritis.
If it was seconal, how was that decided? If it was viral gastroenteritis, how was that determination made? There is absolutely no evidence for a thoughtful evaluation. Not of Borman, not of Lovell and Anders. These are staged illnesses and and I dare say, woefully inadequate staged responses from the doctors.
The obvious concerns about diarrhea in the cabin were never mentioned, let alone addressed.
Borman got sick 18 hours into the flight. Take a look at the transcript from that point and moving forward. Any evidence for the astronauts having been appropriately been looked after? NO. Any discussion in the briefings? No.
Diarrhea possibly containing bacterial or viral pathogens floating in a zero G environment, a mist of contagion adhering to everything, floating away, adhering again, a situation in which air filtering could not provide a solution , could not guarantee astronaut safety, was this issue ever discussed, ever addressed? NO.
The point is that a differential diagnosis for the illness was never generated, the possibilities, all of the possibilities never considered. Appropriate precautions regarding the fallout from Borman's illness never taken. As such, we may conclude with certainty, the doctor patient encounter is staged. Apollo is an exploration of theater, or the power of television/media, not a genuine exploration of our Earth/moon system.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 6, 2011 13:13:18 GMT -4
Well, he had taken a Seconal. And, in fact, quite a lot of medications (as even I know) have diarrhea as a possible side effect. Like, for example, when my best friend took Seconal. You've consistently ignored that the food was a known quantity. You've consistently ignored that they spent time in quarantine before launch.
Frankly, based on all the failings in your posts, the only logical assessment is that you're not actually a doctor. You're certainly not an Apollo researcher. You have chosen to believe that it was faked, and you're grasping at straws to prove it despite the fact that you have acknowledged you don't even understand the weight of evidence which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Apollo was real.
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Post by tedward on Jul 6, 2011 13:19:00 GMT -4
Ah, the same from the other forum?
What was the cause? What would be the time to show symptoms? Certainty of contamination? Not a doctor, just wondering about this stuff as I seem to be very well given the cleanliness of my fellow human.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 13:24:48 GMT -4
While I have no citation for this, I believe that the medical records were kept private in the interest of patient confidentially. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 13:28:43 GMT -4
Borman got sick 18 hours into the flight. Take a look at the transcript from that point and moving forward. Any evidence for the astronauts having been appropriately been looked after? NO. Any discussion in the briefings? No. Do the transcripts you are looking constitute the full and complete record of all communications with the capsule. Have you eliminated the possibility that there was a confidential conversation that was not released to the public? If so, how did you come the the conclusion?
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 13:45:47 GMT -4
For teward. When an individual is sick this way, doctors generate what they refer to as a "differential", a list of possible explanations.
The main concern for this context, sick astronaut in a spaceship would be for a infectious etiology. The worry would be great, fantastic might be a better adjective. First off, for Borman, but for the other astronauts as well.
To get started, doctors always begin with questions. In this case there would be many of them because the doctors cannot get at the patient. They have some monitoring abilities, but these are quite minimal, and they have the observations of the other 2 astronauts, but first and foremost, they have the ability to interrogate, and believe me, were this real, interrogate they would, all 3 of the astronauts would be questioned thoroughly. There is too much at stake to suggest otherwise.
Bacterial and viral pathogens usually have infected a sick individual 16 hours or more prior to symptom development. So in Borman's case, with regard to that one particular concern, and there would be many many other concerns, questioning would be directed towards the meals he ingested prior to boarding the Apollo 8 craft. Typical garden variety "food poisoning", where there is a preformed toxin in the food responsible such as occurs with staph infecting food and seeding it with a preformed toxin, that would be a situation in which the food ingestion , the toxin ingestion, would occur closer in time to symptom onset.
Let's leave it there for now. We do this and a great deal more questioning wise for garden variety patients that walk into our ER with symptoms such as Borman's. 80 year old ladies get the interrogation thing, astronauts would get it all the more so. In a space ship situation, the docs, real docs, they would be on this thing big time and in a big way. Any mention of that in the Apollo 8 debriefing? No. Any talk of what they should do moving forward with regard to the possibility of it happening again? NO. Any discussion in the Apollo 8 debriefing report providing evidence for the diarrhea in the cabin issue having been appropriately addressed during or after the events 18 hours into the flight? No
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 14:08:26 GMT -4
We do this and a great deal more questioning wise for garden variety patients that walk into our ER with symptoms such as Borman's. 80 year old ladies get the interrogation thing, astronauts would get it all the more so. In a space ship situation, the docs, real docs, they would be on this thing big time and in a big way. Any mention of that in the Apollo 8 debriefing? No. Any talk of what they should do moving forward with regard to the possibility of it happening again? NO. Any discussion in the Apollo 8 debriefing report providing evidence for the diarrhea in the cabin issue having been appropriately addressed during or after the events 18 hours into the flight? No You analysis begs the question that medical discussions should properly be in the transcripts. Demonstrate to us that the absence of the information is improper first, before you go off saying the lack of a transcript proves a hoax. Not just what should have occurred, but that the absence of it in the transcripts indicates that it didn't occur. A failure to demonstrate this leaves you with a complete absence of evidence for any claim that follows.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 14:15:37 GMT -4
There is no discussion in the debriefing. One would have expected a great deal. Where was the discussion concerning diarrhea in the cabin? The debriefing situation is most definitely the appropriate place for it. Concerns about astronauts' health and safety aside, the contamination issue has nothing to do with patient privacy. In the case of Apollo 8, to argue a discussion of these concerns should not be in the report is to argue there were no concerns at all to begin with. and this is my point precisely. There were no concerns as the whole thing was staged.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 14:23:34 GMT -4
There is no discussion in the debriefing. One would have expected a great deal. Again begging the question. Because you expected it to be there does not mean it should be there. You are in essence claiming the missions were hoaxed because your expectations of what should be in a report have not been met. And you are doing this to the exclusion of all other evidence that the missions actually occurred.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 14:33:11 GMT -4
Fattydash, a few questions. 1. What is you're experience in the way NASA and other government agencies handle medical issues with their employees? 2. Do you have any direct personal experience or know of any published research to back up your expectations? 3. Why is "the whole thing was staged" the best answer to your misgivings? 4. What other possible answers have you examined and found to be less compelling? There is no discussion in the debriefing. One would have expected a great deal. Where was the discussion concerning diarrhea in the cabin? The debriefing situation is most definitely the appropriate place for it. Concerns about astronauts' health and safety aside, the contamination issue has nothing to do with patient privacy. In the case of Apollo 8, to argue a discussion of these concerns should not be in the report is to argue there were no concerns at all to begin with. and this is my point precisely. There were no concerns as the whole thing was staged.
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Post by tedward on Jul 6, 2011 15:39:27 GMT -4
For teward. When an individual is sick this way, doctors generate what they refer to as a "differential", a list of possible explanations. The main concern for this context, sick astronaut in a spaceship would be for a infectious etiology. The worry would be great, fantastic might be a better adjective. First off, for Borman, but for the other astronauts as well. To get started, doctors always begin with questions. In this case there would be many of them because the doctors cannot get at the patient. They have some monitoring abilities, but these are quite minimal, and they have the observations of the other 2 astronauts, but first and foremost, they have the ability to interrogate, and believe me, were this real, interrogate they would, all 3 of the astronauts would be questioned thoroughly. There is too much at stake to suggest otherwise. Bacterial and viral pathogens usually have infected a sick individual 16 hours or more prior to symptom development. So in Borman's case, with regard to that one particular concern, and there would be many many other concerns, questioning would be directed towards the meals he ingested prior to boarding the Apollo 8 craft. Typical garden variety "food poisoning", where there is a preformed toxin in the food responsible such as occurs with staph infecting food and seeding it with a preformed toxin, that would be a situation in which the food ingestion , the toxin ingestion, would occur closer in time to symptom onset. Let's leave it there for now. We do this and a great deal more questioning wise for garden variety patients that walk into our ER with symptoms such as Borman's. 80 year old ladies get the interrogation thing, astronauts would get it all the more so. In a space ship situation, the docs, real docs, they would be on this thing big time and in a big way. Any mention of that in the Apollo 8 debriefing? No. Any talk of what they should do moving forward with regard to the possibility of it happening again? NO. Any discussion in the Apollo 8 debriefing report providing evidence for the diarrhea in the cabin issue having been appropriately addressed during or after the events 18 hours into the flight? No Bit lost here. You know or do not know what they had and how contagious it was or not? How long can a fit individual keep it at bay or what would be the infection chances? I don't know, that's why I am asking a doctor, you I assume? You are not in a hospital, you are in mission control and your brief if different to what you do now. From what you say there is at least 16 hours to monitor the situation? Seems like a plan.
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