If everything is subjective and nothing exists outside your skull, then god is included in that nothing. If there is an objective reality, then the things most likely to be objective are the things that people agree upon, like gravity. Things that people experience differently, like their gods, are likely to be subjective.
I'm not arguing that there is no objective reality, merely that of necessity all our evidence of that reality is at its base subjective. When it comes down to it, what millions of people over generations of time have experienced is not as important as your own personal experience in determining what you will accept as true.
An argument that most people agree about something, therefore it is more likely to be real is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. But if you insist on using it, then it should be recognized that the majority of mankind agree that there is some kind of God or gods, and the atheist position is the minority.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 244 Location: San Antonio, TX
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #526 on Jan 5, 2010, 12:25pm »
My friend told me that the invisible elves in his back yard demand treats.
Since this is just as subjective as believing that men landed on the moon, I decided to leave treats out for them. When I go outside, they're gone, so that's evidence enough.
My friend told me that the invisible elves in his back yard demand treats.
Since this is just as subjective as believing that men landed on the moon, I decided to leave treats out for them. When I go outside, they're gone, so that's evidence enough.
Now if the elves ate your friend after being denied treats, maybe you would have something.
My faith in God is not based on what others have told me or on an absence of treats, but on my own direct experiences. I have asked and received answers, and been given guidance and aid when needed.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
An argument that most people agree about something, therefore it is more likely to be real is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. But if you insist on using it, then it should be recognized that the majority of mankind agree that there is some kind of God or gods, and the atheist position is the minority.
If you think that gravity is just a popular opinion, try stepping off a cliff. It isn't a matter of an appeal to the number of believers in gravity, it's a matter of common experience of gravity.
An argument that most people agree about something, therefore it is more likely to be real is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. But if you insist on using it, then it should be recognized that the majority of mankind agree that there is some kind of God or gods, and the atheist position is the minority.
If you think that gravity is just a popular opinion, try stepping off a cliff. It isn't a matter of an appeal to the number of believers in gravity, it's a matter of common experience of gravity.
There is no similar common experience of god(s).
A) As you pointed out, whether something is a common experience is irrelevent to whether it is real. B) Are you sure there really is no common experience of god(s)?
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
A) As you pointed out, whether something is a common experience is irrelevent to whether it is real. B) Are you sure there really is no common experience of god(s)?
A)What I actually said was, if there are some things that are real, then they are most likely the things we experience in common, like gravity. No-one expresses disbelief in gravity to the point of stepping off a cliff. B) Yes. I read of all sorts of differing experience, from a firm conviction, like yours even if of a different god, to nothing at all. People express all sorts of beliefs in gods, and there is no common factor as to which get struck by lightning.
What I actually said was, if there are some things that are real, then they are most likely the things we experience in common, like gravity. No-one expresses disbelief in gravity to the point of stepping off a cliff.
You still seem to be arguing that the more people experience something the more likely it is to be real - the logical fallacy I pointed out earlier. It seems to me that our personal experience is the best guide as to what is real and what is not, since we cannot directly access the experiences of all these other people and determine that they are in fact experiencing the same phenomena that we seem to be.
Again, your logic would indicate that since the majority of mankind beleives in some kind of god(s) that such being(s) is/are more likely to exist.
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Yes. I read of all sorts of differing experience, from a firm conviction, like yours even if of a different god, to nothing at all. People express all sorts of beliefs in gods, and there is no common factor as to which get struck by lightning.
Do differing explanations or interpretations of an event mean that it is not actually a common experience?
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
I am saying that in one sense there is no such thing as objective experience. Not only can God not be shown to be objective, but neither can things like gravity or matter. Can you prove that I'm not imagining you? You can prove it beyond reasonable doubt, perhaps, but what is considered reasonable is itself subjective, isn't it?
At some level, we all accept concepts and ideas for which we have no real objective evidence as truth. It's necessary in order to function in a society. Essentially, we all live by faith. That makes my reliance on it not as unnusual or unreasonable as it may first appear.
You are using the terms imagine, experience, and faith in ways that we normally don't use them.
If after I posted this, you replied quoting me, then I would not consider that a case of you imagining me. Let's say we all were walking around Manhattan and you pointed up at the Empire State Building and exclaimed, "Look, there is the Empire State Building!" We would not consider that an instance of imagination. However, this exercise I proposed here does involve acts of imagination. In actual life, we have little to no difficulty telling the difference between imagining and not imagining. It is a non-problem.
The term experience is heavily abused in philosophy. It normally means something you do or have done such as your experience riding a roller coaster. In philosophical discussions, people tend to use the term as if an experience were like some sort of movie or Holodeck sequence happening inside a person. Again, we just don't talk like that or think like that in actual life. A roller coaster ride is you partaking in the event including all that happens and all your reactions to it. Yes, you have personal and private experiences as well, but you have no difficulty telling what those are.
Finally, we live very little by faith. Life is an activity. It is an acquired skill. Skill doesn't develop from faith, but from repeated achievement in the environment.
Now if the elves ate your friend after being denied treats, maybe you would have something.
Wrong.
You yourself argued that it has to do with the evidence that I am willing to accept, and nothing else. Thus, what I just said is as objective as what you're claiming, because this is the evidence I'm willing to accept.
QED.
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My faith in God is not based on what others have told me or on an absence of treats, but on my own direct experiences.
The treats were eaten. That is an experience.
QED.
Oh, and after a date with some psychotropic drugs, I was taken to the Mushroom Kingdom and met Mario and Luigi, who offered me even more mushrooms. So obviously, they exist too; it's objective fact!
I'm sure confirmation bias has nothing to do with your "experiences" at all.
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I have asked and received answers, and been given guidance and aid when needed.
You still seem to be arguing that the more people experience something the more likely it is to be real - the logical fallacy I pointed out earlier. It seems to me that our personal experience is the best guide as to what is real and what is not, since we cannot directly access the experiences of all these other people and determine that they are in fact experiencing the same phenomena that we seem to be.
You are still confusing experience and opinion. Everyone agrees that some phenomena exist, to the point that they never step off cliffs because they don't believe in gravity. I don't step off cliffs, and as I don't see others doing so, I deduce that they experience gravity as I do. If there is an objective reality, these phenomena must have a place in it.
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Again, your logic would indicate that since the majority of mankind beleives in some kind of god(s) that such being(s) is/are more likely to exist.
Not if their descriptions of their gods differ considerably. If one believes in the Hindu pantheon and another in the Jewish god, there is no common experience.
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Do differing explanations or interpretations of an event mean that it is not actually a common experience?
Of course. If one person says that he saw a red elephant and another says, no, it was a green mouse, I would be very little inclined to believe in either.
You yourself argued that it has to do with the evidence that I am willing to accept, and nothing else. Thus, what I just said is as objective as what you're claiming, because this is the evidence I'm willing to accept.
Quite correct. For you the invisible elves are very real and you have perfect justification to believe in them. Until I have had some experiences (subjective) with the invisible elves myself I am inclined not to believe in their objective reality. The same is true of my experiences with God. I have all the evidence I need to convince me that there is something to this whole "God" idea. You may not. One of our views is closer to the objective truth of whether or not God exists, but neither of us should expect the other to convince him until we have had similar experiences. Likewise neither of us should be surprised if the other finds our idea of whether God exists to be silly, though care and politeness would be nice when approaching the views of another.
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I'm sure confirmation bias has nothing to do with your "experiences" at all.
Are you claiming that confirmation bias has not affected your own view of God?
I generally take the view that nearly everybody is biased when it comes to religious views.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
You are using the terms imagine, experience, and faith in ways that we normally don't use them.
Time to expand your horizens then.
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If after I posted this, you replied quoting me, then I would not consider that a case of you imagining me.
But if I were imagining you from the beginning then my quoting of "you" would simply be myself repeating what I imagined someone had said to me.
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In actual life, we have little to no difficulty telling the difference between imagining and not imagining. It is a non-problem.
Are you sure that is the case? Studies have shown that pepole tend to remember only what they pay attention to, if that, and use imagination to fill in other details. People tend to have a great deal of difficulty seperating the true details in their memory from what they assumed or made up. That is why eye-witnesses of a crime are quickly seperated by police and interviewed seperately - because if they are allowed to talk together they will cross-contaminate their memories and what they imagined about the event. Real details of the crime will get mixed up with false memories.
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In philosophical discussions, people tend to use the term as if an experience were like some sort of movie or Holodeck sequence happening inside a person.
That would be because, ultimately, our experience is just the sensory input we received at the time. It is by necessity subjective and internal.
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Finally, we live very little by faith. Life is an activity. It is an acquired skill. Skill doesn't develop from faith, but from repeated achievement in the environment.
I strongly disagree. We wouldn't even get out of bed in the morning if we didn't have faith that our legs would work, faith that the rest of our home that we can't see is still there and hasn't burned down in the night, faith that our plumbing and electrical wiring will work to deliver light and hot water for our morning shower, faith that no one stole the food we have waiting for breakfast, etc. etc.
Belief in things for which there is no immediate evidence - faith - is vital in order to function in normal society.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
You are still confusing experience and opinion. Everyone agrees that some phenomena exist, to the point that they never step off cliffs because they don't believe in gravity. I don't step off cliffs, and as I don't see others doing so, I deduce that they experience gravity as I do. If there is an objective reality, these phenomena must have a place in it.
Must they? Does everything that "everyone" believes have objective truth?
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Of course. If one person says that he saw a red elephant and another says, no, it was a green mouse, I would be very little inclined to believe in either.
But would you beileve that both had seen something, even if they couldn't agree on the details?
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,144 Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Re: Was Jesus Christ God? « Reply #538 on Jan 6, 2010, 2:33pm »
Religious people have to somehow diminish or knock holes in reality so that their beliefs seem less absurd.
In order for Jason to convince us that his personal religious experiences weren't imagined he feels he needs to show that none of reality is any more "real".
Jason is basically saying that I can't prove that reality isn't just a dream. Well, since I've never floated out of my chair and up to the ceiling, or shown up to work or school only to realize I was naked, I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between reality and a dream.
And yes, I do think that when it comes to things that are not matters of opinion consensus does matter. If everyone agrees that gravity is real then it's ridiculous to claim it isn't. If everyone agrees that ice is cold who in their right mind would claim otherwise?
If reality is in your head then you make the rules. So go jump off a bridge... you can fly if you want to. Or try walking through a brick wall... it's not really there.
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