'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Yes I know you don't believe in them, but I have talked to too many people who have experienced them, including myself, to not believe that there is something else out there. It's easy to write it off as delusions and imagination, but when you experience it yourself and talk to others that have as well, either there are a lot of very delusional people in this world, or there is something beyond what we know.
I feel so left out. Why won't the angels visit me too?
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Getting sick and dying isn't a punishment for wrong doing, and living a long life isn't a reward, in fact God tells us that from his perspective our lives on Earth are but the blink of an eye, that to Him a thousand years is but a day. As such whether someone lives for 90 years or years 9, from God's perspective, it is the same.
It's really nice to hear that God considers our time on Earth so insignificant. How is that supposed to improve my opinion of God?
I don't care if our lives are but a blink of an eye to God. I have no evidence of an afterlife, therefore I think it's more important to live as long as we can and get the most out of our time here because that's probably all there is.
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What is it to miss 100 years on Earth but gain perfection for all eternity? What is it to have 90 years on Earth, but suffer separation from God and worse, forever?
Didn't you just chastise me for assuming things? I'm not going to rush through my life assuming "eternal perfection" is waiting for me when I die. I think it's better to assume that this life is all I'll get and that I shouldn't waste it.
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No, because again you are assuming the car is as was designed, it's not, and neither are our bodies.
So our bodies and the diseases that affect us all evolved naturally. Got it. Where does God come into play then?
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Do you think that God should be at our beck and call fixing up everything we do wrong and making sure everyone is cushy and comfortable? Should God be our nurse and maid?
Not at all. Like I said before, I'm just wondering why he saves some people but not others.
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Mirales occur to increase faith, intervening in every situation and fixing every problem in the world would destroy faith.
Okay, so God has had plenty of opportunities to increase my faith but instead he did nothing and solidified my complete lack of faith. So his methods backfired in my case, and I'm sure I'm not the only one he has lost because of his hands off approach. It's funny that the people who get the miracles are the people who already believe.
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Simple, if God intervene in our lives everyday and was in our faces healing anyone that stubbed their toe or stopping run away cars, evapourating pollution and tazering criminals with lightning till the police got there, why would we need to have faith?
I certainly do not mean he needs to intervene in every minor stubbed toe. I'm merely curious about what his criteria is for who gets a miracle and who doesn't. And yeah, maybe it would be nice if he had given Hitler a heart attack before he could have done any harm. You know, the minor things that rank the same as a stubbed toe. But maybe World War II occurred during the part of God's blink when his eyes were closed.
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Total Balony. You don't want cancer, don't eat too much red meat, don't eat food with pesticides in them, don't live near radioactive chemically poluted areas, don't go out in the sun, stay away from hydrocarbons, don't eat processed foods, don't consume artifical flavourings and colourings, don't get a cell phone, stay away from X-Ray machines, make sure to eat a good number of the right fresh raw fruits, grains, vegetables, and nuts, and drink enough clean fresh water, don't drink alcohol and don't smoke or use drugs. Don't drink Coffee. Don't eat burnt or charred food. Stay clear of fried foods. Exercise regularly.
How many six year olds do you know who do those things? They still get cancer. And then there are all of the other diseases that they just can't do anything to avoid.
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Do all of that and the odds of getting cancer are next to nil.
Talk about baloney. I'm all for healthy living, but you can't blame all cancers on things that are in our control. We don't have any say in our genetic makeup, for example, and there are naturally occurring sources of radiation exposure (like radon... God put the uranium in the Earth, not us) that we didn't even know existed until relatively recent times.
Talk about baloney. I'm all for healthy living, but you can't blame all cancers on things that are in our control. We don't have any say in our genetic makeup, for example, and there are naturally occurring sources of radiation exposure (like radon... God put the uranium in the Earth, not us) that we didn't even know existed until relatively recent times.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
I'm sure PW and Jason will tell you that they are innocent victims who are paying the price for our abuse of the Earth. Which I don't totally disagree with because SOME cancers are our fault.
They are saying cancer is the result of natural and man made causes, that God doesn't play a role. Therefore I ask, why do we need God? Why do we waste our time praying to him when someone gets sick if he isn't going to interfere? It sounds to me like they're saying that praying is useless, and I agree with that.
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 2,232 Location: Olympia
Re: Doomsayer Environmentalists are Always Wrong « Reply #291 on Nov 6, 2009, 7:27pm »
Let's move beyond cancer. Why does God allow Downs Syndrome? Autism? (Unless you're one of the idiots who thinks it's caused by vaccines.) All sorts of other diseases which are genetic, not ever environmental? Why am I bipolar? What did I do to deserve the genetics which have damaged my brain--and my knees, since I'm arthritic?
If it's the Fall, well, I had nothing to do with that. Yes, the Bible says that the children shall pay unto the seventh generation, but even Biblical literalists know it's been just a wee bit longer than seven generations since then. Why should we still bear responsibility?
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
I feel so left out. Why won't the angels visit me too?
How do you know they haven't? The writter of Hebrews tells us... Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.
Indeed, while some encounters with the angelic or demonic are very attention getting, other people have spoken of encounters they didn't know where until after the fact, sometimes only because they talked to someone else that saw, or when they talked to the person (or a friend of the person) they thought had come to them and found out that they were nowhere near at the time, even in another country. I'd also suggest that it's more likely that angels would appear to or in defense of believers more then non-believers, as I would expect demons to confront and terrorize those that oppose them more often that those that don't believe in them.
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It's really nice to hear that God considers our time on Earth so insignificant. How is that supposed to improve my opinion of God?
It's really nice that you put words in people's mouths. You used the word "insignificant" not me, and not God. Just because something is brief doesn't make it insignificant. The slaying of Kennedy was over in 8.5 seconds, and yet as a result it has helped to shape the modern political landscape of the US. That God tells us that the choices we make in this life will affect us for an eternity would seem to indicate that God believes that our time on Earth is far from insignificant.
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I don't care if our lives are but a blink of an eye to God. I have no evidence of an afterlife, therefore I think it's more important to live as long as we can and get the most out of our time here because that's probably all there is.
It wouldn't be much of a step of faith if there was evidence you could measure and test now would it? Besides, no one is saying that you shouldn't live out your life the best you can. Just because of a belief in an afterlife doesn't mean that we should be in a hurry to get there. In the end though I have to ask you this. What if you are wrong? If I am wrong, well there'll be no one to tell me I told you so, but what if you are wrong?
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Didn't you just chastise me for assuming things? I'm not going to rush through my life assuming "eternal perfection" is waiting for me when I die. I think it's better to assume that this life is all I'll get and that I shouldn't waste it.
My assumptions are based on that God exists and what He told us is true. If you fail to allow that assumption, then we have nothing further to discuss. Your assumption was that God would do things like you think he should, or he's a terrible god.
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So our bodies and the diseases that affect us all evolved naturally. Got it. Where does God come into play then?
Again with the words in people's mouths, I thought better of you than that LO.
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Not at all. Like I said before, I'm just wondering why he saves some people but not others.
If we knew that we'd be omniscient to. We can't see the result before things happen, we don't know how things will affect others lives.
I know of at least one woman who suffered breast cancer and though she prayed for healing, wasn't. She ended up losing her breasts and was very sick for a long time before she was able to beat it with chemo and radiation. Now she ministers to other women going through breast cancer. Could she have been as useful in that role if God has swooped in and healed her instead of her going through what those she now deals with are?
It's not until you see the pattern of the finished rug that you understand why each thread is in it, both the bright and the dark ones.
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Okay, so God has had plenty of opportunities to increase my faith but instead he did nothing and solidified my complete lack of faith. So his methods backfired in my case, and I'm sure I'm not the only one he has lost because of his hands off approach. It's funny that the people who get the miracles are the people who already believe.
Firstly, have you asked? Miracles rarely come to those that don't ask. Secondly, would you notice it and believe it? Sure if someone cancer suddenly goes into remission that'd be a miracle right? Or perhaps it was the drugs and the radiation finally working, or just a natural part of our bodies' defences kicking in, perhaps they were just misdiagnosed or just got really lucky.
The thing is, that there are documented cases where people, including children, have been on the verge of death from cancer and other diseases, and they have been suddenly and overnight cured, even when the medical staff had given up on them. I have a book that gives five cases just as a sample group of them. If you are to accept these as miracles then surely you have to accept God irregardless of whether they were done for you or not, and if you don't but rather explain them away, then why would God bother to do miracles for you because the odds are you won't accept those as miracles either?
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I certainly do not mean he needs to intervene in every minor stubbed toe. I'm merely curious about what his criteria is for who gets a miracle and who doesn't.
But that is where your desire leads. If God healed us of cancers and disease, then why not broken boanes, sprains and abrassions too? As to his criteria, as I said before, we can't know why until we see the whole picture.
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And yeah, maybe it would be nice if he had given Hitler a heart attack before he could have done any harm. You know, the minor things that rank the same as a stubbed toe. But maybe World War II occurred during the part of God's blink when his eyes were closed.
You know something funny (not haha, but more on the werid side) if WW2 had not happened, I wouldn't be here. See my Pop (Father's Father) went to England to help in the war and joined the RAF. There he meet, fell in love with and married my Nana, and she became pregnant with my father, coming out to New Zealand just before he was born. Without WW2, my Pop would not have returned to England, would not have met my Nana and my Father would never have been born, and nor would I.
Now I am not saying that WW2 happened just so I could be born, I'm not that vain, but who knows what else came from it that wouldn't have otherwise. Consider that we are told that Israel will play a pivotal role in the end times, but it was WW2 that allowed for the recreation of the State of Israel. Without Hitler, we'd likely not have Israel today. The US might not have become the power it is today either. WW2 has shaped our world in ways we can't entirely comprehend, and nor do we understand why all of them are important, but that is why we're not God.
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How many six year olds do you know who do those things? They still get cancer. And then there are all of the other diseases that they just can't do anything to avoid.
You mean how many six-year olds in the western world eat processed foods full of artifical colourings, flavourings, and preservatives. Eat fried foods, that have been sprayed with pesticides. Are exposed to high and low energy EM fields and particles, go out in the sun and get burnt. Most of them. A lot of them are exposed to cigerette smoke and other nasties too. And that's not considering that genetic damage can start even before they are conceived if their parents are exposed to some of those things mentioned.
Do you ever wonder why childhood and other cancers are rare in undeveloped countries, but in developing countires they have started to increase by 10% a year til they reach the rates in the developed world? Have you ever wondered why people that move from undeveloped countries suddenly become as suseptable top cancer as those already living there even if in their home countries the risk is minimal?
Yes there are other diseases as well, but again, how many of the diseases that we suffer from today are a result of our own creation? (And no I don't mean that someone whipped them up in a lab, but rather that mankind as a whole has created the enviroment for them to flouish.) Look at Swine Flu, Bird Flu, HIV/AIDS. We may not have created them in a lab, but we certainly created the enviroment for them to come to the fore and then spread rapidly through our populations.
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Talk about baloney. I'm all for healthy living, but you can't blame all cancers on things that are in our control.
As individuals perhaps, but a lot of things are, and most things are within the control of mankind as a whole. Whether you like it, or accept it, most disease and the like is a result of man's actions, not God's. Yes God allows it, but every parent has to let a child's actions catch up with them sooner or later, otherwise they don't learn anything.
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We don't have any say in our genetic makeup, for example
Genetics that would be fine if not for damage caused by exposure to what we have done to this world.
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and there are naturally occurring sources of radiation exposure (like radon... God put the uranium in the Earth, not us) that we didn't even know existed until relatively recent times.
But he didn't force us to live on top of it, or build homes that would capture radon gases. Nor did he force us to start firing the stuff about our battlefields.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
I'm sure PW and Jason will tell you that they are innocent victims who are paying the price for our abuse of the Earth. Which I don't totally disagree with because SOME cancers are our fault.
Only some? If cancer isn't created by the way we live in the developed world, why are the rates of cancer in the undeveloped so much lower, and many cancers non-existance there? Why do developing countries see year by year increases in cancer? Why are the countries with high cancer rates and the most types of cancers all developed ones? Why when people leave the undeveloped world and move to the developed world, do their rates and types of cancer increase to mirror that of those already living there? If cancer wasn't our fault, then surely all countries would suffer the same rates of it and all countries would have the same cancers, yet this clearly isn't the case. Instead it all points towards cancer being enviromental, and what is the main enviromental difference between developed and undeveloped countries?
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They are saying cancer is the result of natural and man made causes, that God doesn't play a role. Therefore I ask, why do we need God?
I don't recall saying much about natural causes. Of course your argument could be used to point out that since accidents are caused by drivers and not mechanics, we don't need mechanics either.
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Why do we waste our time praying to him when someone gets sick if he isn't going to interfere? It sounds to me like they're saying that praying is useless, and I agree with that.
Who says he's not going to interfer? Just because sometimes he says no, doesn't mean that he's never going to say yes. Obviously he does say yes a good amount of time, else no one would bother, would they?
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
Let's move beyond cancer. Why does God allow Downs Syndrome? Autism? (Unless you're one of the idiots who thinks it's caused by vaccines.) All sorts of other diseases which are genetic, not ever environmental? Why am I bipolar? What did I do to deserve the genetics which have damaged my brain--and my knees, since I'm arthritic?
If it's the Fall, well, I had nothing to do with that. Yes, the Bible says that the children shall pay unto the seventh generation, but even Biblical literalists know it's been just a wee bit longer than seven generations since then. Why should we still bear responsibility?
Why are you assuming that the person that suffers from things in a fallen world bears responsibility? When Jesus healed one man who had been born blind, he was asked if the man's disbility was a result of his sins, or his parents. Jesus replied that "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."
This doesn't mean that God made him blind in order to show off, but rather that God was able to use his blindness to both create a lesson and in the end bring a gift into the man's life. Had He not allowed the man to be blind, both opportunities would have been lost.
Now again that doesn't mean that every illness in this world is going to be used as a opportunity for God to act and display his power, but if God didn't allow it to happen, then there would never be an opportunity.
I'd also debate that it's possible to claim conclusively that the damaged or mutated genes that cause these sort of diseases aren't a result of our enviroment, or at least the enviroment the Human race has created over the past 10-5,000 years.
It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
This doesn't mean that God made him blind in order to show off, but rather that God was able to use his blindness to both create a lesson and in the end bring a gift into the man's life. Had He not allowed the man to be blind, both opportunities would have been lost.
Fine, then there should be no difficulties in simply praying a lot and getting cured...right??...oh wait...
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...that doesn't mean that every illness in this world is going to be used as a opportunity for God to act and display his power, but if God didn't allow it to happen, then there would never be an opportunity.
Always an "out". An opportunity for what?...to show how much of a sadist god is?
I'd rather worship satan than worship an insane god...although the point is moot since neither exist.
How am I so sure of this? I simply look to the behavior of gods followers and the irrational twists and turns they will take in order to preserve their irrational beliefs.
I think you may have meant omniscient (all-knowing) instead of omnipotent (all-powerful), but yeah, that's my point.
I'm sure you're right, but wouldn't being all-knowing be part of being all-powerful? If someone wasn't all-knowing they wouldn't really be all-powerful.
Are there limits to what God knows or what he can do?
My assumptions are based on the assumption that God exists and what He told us is true. If you fail to allow that assumption, then we have nothing further to discuss. Your assumption was that God would do things like you think he should, or he's a terrible god.
Fixed that for you.
Your God, as described, is a terrible God. Not in the awe-inspiring sense. Children, as you describe it, suffer because their parents, or people related to them only in the sense that they are also human, damaged their world. Animals suffer--well, we don't know why, really; you've never responded to that. Except inasmuch as it's probably our fault, too, which means God will let them suffer for things that aren't their fault, too, and which doesn't teach anybody any lessons.
No, I don't expect miracles to happen all the time; I don't expect them at all, because I believe in a non-interventionist God. But yours, it seems, does awful things so that we'll believe, keeps us in the dark so we'll believe. Your God, apparently, considers blind faith preferable to knowledge, and that's why there is no evidence of its existence. Oh, there's no evidence of mine, either, but the God I believe in is the universe, the laws, and so forth. There are no miracles because everything is. It matters not a whit to my God if you believe or not; It Is. But yours is willing to let me suffer to make some kind of moral lesson? Or because apparently, all genetic flaws are the fault of my ancestors for utilizing the free will God gave them?
Screw your God. If your God will let me suffer like this--and you have no idea what this suffering is like--to teach a lesson to someone else, that's a cruel God. If I am suffering for living in a modern, industrialized world that actually gives me a longer lifespan and a smaller likelihood of dying in childbirth--oh, that's Eve's fault; that's right--and that means I deserve this suffering, screw your God; that's a cruel God. It's fine to be smug and self-satisfied that you know better than we of God's ineffable nature, but from the way you've described Him, I don't want anything to do with your God, and I'm surprised you do.
I'm sure PW and Jason will tell you that they are innocent victims who are paying the price for our abuse of the Earth. Which I don't totally disagree with because SOME cancers are our fault.
Actually I am not in agreement with Phantom Wolf on that point. No, I don't feel that cancer victims, animal or human, are "paying the price" for human activity, at least, not in many cases. Certainly we have created some things that can cause cancer - cigarettes being a prime example - but I don't think all cancer can be ascribed to human activity.
Why do developing nations have a higher incidence of cancer than the undeveloped world? Well, cancer and other degenerative diseases generally require that you live long enough to develop them, and the reporting of cancer requires that you be diagnosed with it. Developing nations lack both longer life spans and the easy access to medical care that would diagnose cancer when it occurs. If 15% of your population is being killed by malaria then it stands to reason you won't see as much cancer.
'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?' 'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
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