"Show us a photo of either the descent or the ascent rockets firing and the exhaust plume. And exactly how does a space craft fly when "The engine is NOT ON"" -Stelios at the DIF Google search this site
Mr debunker please don't say static electricity, because it is only fast movement, which would cause air flow to move flag. If it were static, proximity to flag would also cause movement, it does not appear to be the case.
If it were air flow, why do other things such as mylar blankets and sealed bags not behave in any way consistently with air being present?
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I would like to also comment on the Apollo 11 videos, if you study them, they are absurd. the descent sequence the ascent sequence and the docking sequence these are all make believe holllywood dream fantasies.
Explain in more detail.
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debunkers take your rose colored glasses off, stop defending make believe, and actually look at the evidence the NASA has presented.
I have looked at it. It is frankly quite probable I have looked at more of it than you have. If you have specific claims to make then please rpesent them.
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Another thing go to bbc 1970 patick moore interview of armstrong, in it armstrong says stars cannot be seen from the moon or even the space between the earth and the moon, the "only" objects visible are the earth sun and moon.
He said he didn't see them, not that they were impossible to see.
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do you really intend to say a man on the moon would not take a few minutes to be enjoy the view of the universe.
Some of them did so, and reported the fatc. Armstorng and Aldrin had a very tight timeline to follow, and the stars from the moon look pretty much like the stars from the Earth anyway. Are you saying that anyone would rather look at the sky that looks very much like the sky on Earth rather than at the moon, where they have never been before?
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look at the videos of the LEM taking off from the descent stage, no flame no smoke, no visible evidence that there is any ignition of fuel.
Nor should there be. The propellants used in the LM are well known for producing a near-transparent, smokeless flame.
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i would prefer it to be true, but the evidence is not favorable to a moon landing.
Your falure to understand it is the problem. The evidence is very strongly in favour of a genuine landing or six.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
Mr debunker please don't say static electricity, because it is only fast movement, which would cause air flow to move flag.
And what about all the times an astronaut moves past a flag and it doesn't budge?
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I would like to also comment on the Apollo 11 videos, if you study them, they are absurd. the descent sequence the ascent sequence and the docking sequence these are all make believe holllywood dream fantasies.
What is absurd about them?
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even from the moons surface, how long would it take for the eyes to adjust to the blackness if you looked up to see the stars...
How do you propose to obstruct the brightly-lit lunar surface all around an astronaut long enough for their eyes to dark-adapt?
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do you really intend to say a man on the moon would not take a few minutes to be enjoy the view of the universe...or is it more fun to run around the moons surface doing kangaroo hops...
Astronauts were not there to have fun, they were there to do a job, and a very costly job at that. They could not afford to stand around literally staring off into space.
But if it was all faked, what would be the point in saying they couldn't see the stars? Just say, "Yeah, they were brighter than any stars I'd ever seen," and avoid the whole counter-intuition trap in the first place.
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landing the lem on a cusion of 5000 degree exhaust fumes, and maylar film wrapped all over the legs and bottom part of the lem is untouched?
With no air between the rocket nozzle and legs to conduct or convect heat, by what other mechanism do you propose the transference took place? Where is your "5000 degree" measurement taken, in the combustion chamber? What happens to the temperature of a hot gas when it is released into a vacuum?
"Earth diameter is 7,900 miles, and Moon diameter is 2,160 miles. It takes on average 90 minutes to complete one Earth orbit, so one Moon orbit should take roughly 25 minutes." - Sam "NasaScam" Colby
"you data is still open for interpretation, after all a NASA employee might of wipe a booger or dropped a hair on it" - showtime
i would like to have a debunker debunk the real issue, and that is the times the flag moves when an astronaut moves quickly by a flag, and there is movement. And yes there is videos of this.
There is only one video where the flag moves as the astronaut passes it, from Apollo 15 if I remember. It isn't clear from the video what causes the flag to move, but possible explanations other than static electricity are the astronaut actually touching the flag or the astronaut kicking up some dirt which hits the flagpole. In any case, the subsequent movement of the flag, a very slowly damped swing, is utterly unlike a flag moving in air, but much as you'd expect from a flag in a vacuum.
1) I would like a link to your reference so I know what the heck you're going on about.
2) I prefer to read posts written with complete sentences and at least minimal compliance with the standards of English language punctuation. My reason for this is proper punctuation requires methodical sentence construction rather than randomly flinging one's fingers around the glass of a "smart" phone, leading to more comprehensible statements less prone to misunderstandings and ambiguity.
1) examine the terrain, craters are just smuges...?
I don't know if you are aware, but the film has recently been compared with the best new photographic maps of that part of the moon, and shows complete agreement.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
Can some rocket scientiest explain to me where all of the rocket exhaust went, as the lem was decending into the path of the exhaust? Initially at 4000 mph.
Forward and sideways. The LM does not descend 'into' the exhaust. The exhaust already has the LM descent velocity as a component of its motion.
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Please don't say it dissapated instantaniously into the vacuum of space.
It wasn't instant, but it would be pretty quick. With a pressure of zero surrounding the engine, what would prevent it dissipating?
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Even if the exhaust gases did not come into contact with the mylar film, the radiant heat from the exhaust would still be intense.
Any numbers to back that up? Radiant heat is precisely what the metallised mylar film was designed to reflect.
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The rocket exhaust had to blanket the LEM during the descent, and unquestionably during the final 10-15 seconds while it was landing,
Why? The exhaust goes 'down' from the LM, wherever it is and wherever it is going. When it strikes the lunar surface the flow of exhaust is directed radially outwards along the surface. It does not come back up to the LM under any circumstances.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
referencing the film from apollo 11 cm view of lem MAG 1122 D
1) examine the terrain, craters are just smuges...? 2) the time it takes for the terrain to move from bottom of screen to the top initially is about 13 seconds, at about the 1 minute mark the time alters to average 30 seconds, also start to note a distinct enlargement of the features as they move from bottom to top of screen.
Both of which are consistent with the expected appearance of terrain moving beneath a spacecraft maintaining a fixed inertial attitude.
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3) motion starts out with the moon terrain receeding from view at about the 2 - 3 minute mark the moon is now coming into view, the cm has done an about face, the lem has come up from behind the cm and is now moved in front of the cm relative to its motion...
I do not understand what you mean. The terrain is moving from the bottom to the top of the screen throughout. Where does this appear to be 'receding' at all?
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4) the lem never changes its orientation till the very end, and the cm never changes its position relative to the lem, they are in perfectly matched motion relative to each other,
That is precisely how the ascent and rendezvous was designed. The two spacecraft moved so that the LM would see the CSM as a fixed point against the background stars. It therefore follows logically that the LM will appear to be in a fixed position out of a window.
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6) after the reversal of direction of motion, about the 4 minute mark, terrain now starts to appear more crater like then smudges.
And since the motion has carried them around a significant portion of the Moon, this is precisely what you would expect to see as the illumination angle changes. You can see that effect from here. Try picking out craters on the Moon through a telescope during a full moon, then see how much easier it is at any other phase as you get nearer to the terminator.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
[quote author=playdor board=theories thread=3248 post=94682 time=1321135299]Concerning the propellents for LEM please reference the series moon machines in it they discuss the nature of the Ascent engine, the fuel used in this was so corrosive they could not and did not test finished engines, they had to assume it might just work ok. The engine was only good for 1 burn.
The Ascent engine had unique fuel, it was hypergolic in nature.
I have seen that series. I have also seen several others, seen film of the development of the LM, and read several books on the subject. The ascent and descent engines used the same fuel. The series in question made a point of it with regard to the ascent engine because of the absolutely critical nature of the engine firing. If the descent engine doesn't work the landing is lost but the crew are safe. If the ascent engine fails the crew are dead. It makes a point of the element of risk of the crew trustng their lives to a piece of untested hardware.
It wasn't as risky as it sounds, since the engine was made exactly the same way as the ones that were tested, so there was no reason to believe it would not work, and even if an engine has been tested that is no guarantee it won't fail the next time it is fired. For the sake of a TV show, it made for a good bit of drama, however.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
Your telling me that 100% of the exhaust is driven away from the LEM as it descends?
Yes. That's physics.
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That there is no chance of turbulance in the exhaust stream pushing the exhaust in various directions?
Where would turbulence be generated in the exhaust stream?
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That the side ways motion of the exhaust could not affect the landing struts.
The landing pads only extended abot a foot or two lower than the end of the descent engine, and they were each about 12 feet away from it. The exhaust does disperse in the vacuum, but it doesn't go sideways at that angle.
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Any comment on where the exhaust disipated as it is landing?
The exhaust dissipates radially along the surface of the Moon. That's fluid dynamics you can see for yourself in your kitchen sink. Turn on a tap and get a smooth flow going, then see what happenes when it hits the sink. The water does not bounce up, it forms a sheet along the bottom of the sink.
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Any comment on radiant heat from the exhaust?
Yes. It's what the mylar film was designed to reflect. That's why they put the stuff on the underside and the legs.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.
Can some rocket scientiest explain to me where all of the rocket exhaust went, as the lem was decending into the path of the exhaust? Initially at 4000 mph.
The way you wrote that it would appear you are struggling under the misconception that the rocket exhaust would behave as if it were on the Earth, e.g. it shot out a short distance then stopped and then the LM flew into a cloud of scorching gas.
That is just plain wrong. There is no atmosphere on the Moon to stop the exhaust gases. The exhaust gas exited the nozzle at speeds of thousands of meters per second and the gas maintained that speed until it hit something.
Adding "Initially at 4000 mph" also seems to indicate you think the speed of the LM and the speed of the exhaust are dependent on each other. They are not.
P.S. The LEM acronym was dropped very early in the Apollo program. It is the LM.
"Show us a photo of either the descent or the ascent rockets firing and the exhaust plume. And exactly how does a space craft fly when "The engine is NOT ON"" -Stelios at the DIF Google search this site
Please produce some evidence to show that mylar plastic film will withstand 5000 degree temps or even 500 degrees.
Right after you provide some evidence that it was ever actually exposed to those kind of temperatures. Just because the exhaust at some point was that hot doesn't mean that the plume outside the engine bell would be and even if it was doesn't mean that the mylar film would get that hot because it reflects the radiant heat rather than absorbing it.
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