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Post by nomuse on Aug 3, 2007 2:53:36 GMT -4
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 3, 2007 3:35:33 GMT -4
And he's gone. When all was said and done, he turned out to be the same IDW as at GLP.
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Post by nomuse on Aug 3, 2007 4:39:27 GMT -4
That was....surprisingly pointless. It almost looks like his real agenda was to be seen talking as an equal to Jay, then get banned so he could claim his arguments frightened people.
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Post by svector on Aug 3, 2007 4:56:48 GMT -4
And he's gone. When all was said and done, he turned out to be the same IDW as at GLP. << sigh >>I had high hopes, but it appears you board veterans were wise to be skeptical. In the end, just another HB trying to apply a layperson's "common sense" to specialized fields and failing miserably. He seemed genuinely perplexed when his "it's so because I say it is" tactic didn't fly, and thus the death spiral began in earnest. The "hot car" argument sounded eerily familiar. I had an exchange with someone about six months ago who used that exact comparison. The end game was also similar.
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Post by svector on Aug 3, 2007 5:00:13 GMT -4
That was....surprisingly pointless. It almost looks like his real agenda was to be seen talking as an equal to Jay, then get banned so he could claim his arguments frightened people. Not that this tactic is anything new. I wonder how faithfully he was able to follow his scripted routine.
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Post by ineluki on Aug 3, 2007 7:38:39 GMT -4
The "hot car" argument sounded eerily familiar. It is also quite selective. Let's assume I am even more a layman than I am... I could try a simple experiment 1. Take two cars, one with some reflective windscreen shades (something like www.ventlock.com/windscrn.php) the other without them. 2. Park both cars in the sun 3. Measure the interior temperature of both cars 4. Notice that the car with shades is cooler 5. Draw the conclusion that reflection works great for keeping cars cool and would work for a spacecraft as well Funny, how my layman's experiment just came to the opposite result of IDW' s claim... I guess we need some real numbers after all...
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Post by BertL on Aug 3, 2007 9:20:17 GMT -4
That was awkward. He was almost begging to get banned. I guess he couldn't defend himself against such a huge amount of information and decided to go kamikaze.
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Post by rchappo on Aug 3, 2007 9:27:16 GMT -4
It was awkward but inevitable I guess. The fact is that he couldn't provide any computations to back up his claims. I don't know how he thought that just debating Jay on his own would have helped his cause. No evidence is no evidence whether you're debating 1 person or 10 people.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Aug 3, 2007 9:56:29 GMT -4
The fact is that he couldn't provide any computations to back up his claims. That's IDW's MO. He just goes on and on about how intelligent and skilled he is but never does a thing to demonstrate it. You can press him day and night to back up his boasts but it will never come. I've never seen anyone else quite like him. He is definitely all bark and no bite.
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 3, 2007 10:11:57 GMT -4
He was almost begging to get banned.
He was literally begging to get banned. Apparently in the conspiracy world there's no honor in departing BAUT voluntarily; you have to be "banned for your views."
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 3, 2007 11:04:35 GMT -4
I have to confess that the part which nearly compelled me to say what I felt instead of what I thought was where he accused me of ad hominem attacks because I said he "wasn't special."
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Post by gwiz on Aug 3, 2007 11:44:32 GMT -4
I said he "wasn't special." In social-worker-speak, that's a compliment.
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Post by tofu on Aug 3, 2007 14:51:10 GMT -4
So, what's this guy's story? I mean, what is his theory of the world? One of his last posts is the accusation that BAUT itself is part of the giant government conspiracy. Is that his typical song and dance?
The HBs always tell you what they really think right at the end. Sometimes we get people who start out talking Apollo and then they transition into "I hate the USA" other times we get people who start talking about Apollo and then they turn out to believe that alien lizards have eaten the british royal family. At the end, there is usually some underlying issue not related to Apollo. What was this guy's deal?
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Post by nomuse on Aug 3, 2007 15:27:06 GMT -4
His complete song-and-dance is unique. He falls well outside the usual spectrum of the Apollo Hoax promoter; IDW most definitely has a different world-view and agenda. Somewhere in there he has an ATM theory of his own, similar in some vague ways to the "Electric Universe" but with unique descriptions of atomic structure and electro-magnetism. I believe supporting this theory may be his strongest interest, with the claimed fakery of some part of the Apollo Project as merely a sideline.
However, as a general conspiracy-believer he gets into some strange and frightening territory. He finds the portmanteau word "Zionazi" useful enough to apply frequently, as he mixes a complex story of ethnic, scientific, and personal repression and persecution by an ill-defined but largely Jewish enemy. To IDW, Einstein was nothing but a poster boy picked by a secret cabal of scientists to present a false theory to a gullible world (aka Relativity...but in the IDW universe Quantum Theory and even String Theory evolve directly from the assumptions of Relativity). He has not explained, to my knowledge, what the conspirators gain from this deception.
I do not believe I am sliding into ad hom here. I am being careful to speak neutrally of the man and his theories. And he is not currently (nor likely to be) engaged in any arguments here.
The thread at BAUT followed the usual IDW pattern almost exactly; first posts are not just polite but well-phrased and give an impression of education. No response in made to rebuttal of those first posts (other than "nuh uh!") Gradually, his argument is buttressed more and more by a science only he understands. (To paraphrase; "Radiative heat transfer doesn't work that way. You guys only think it does because you've been blinded by the fairy-tale of the photon, a particle which doesn't exist.")
Also, his posts become less and less "tight"; with mis-quotes, misspelling, derailed sentences, and the like. They also focus more and more on those making an argument and the words they chose to make their argument; not on the substance of the argument.
The only difference in the BAUT thread is that by post #2 in the usual IDW thread he would be calling the other posters morons, by post #5 he would be throwing lots of random profanity into his posts, and by post #10 he would give up entirely on presenting anything that passes for argument; reduced to shouting insults and threats in the typed equivalent of an angry scrawl (all caps and almost entirely misspelled).
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Aug 3, 2007 15:35:42 GMT -4
I think IDW has a problem with highly educated people. He certainly sees himself as a person of very high intellect and an equal, or better, of people like Jay. It is quite clear however that he has never received a higher education (at least not in science or engineering). He is very resentful of those who have the expertise that he wishes he had. Instead of having an "I hate America" complex, I think IDW has an "I hate those snobby intellectuals" complex. His attitude seems to be, "I'm better than any of those eggheads but I got screwed and never got my chance". To him the debate is all about trying to look good and score points against the person he sees as the ringleader of the pro-Apollo crowd.
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