JFK - also for the heck of it

[snakeriverrufus]

O.K. my first objection is withdrawn. I found it odd that any marine would not know the gunny's name.

[snakeriverrufus]

turbonium said:

I'm ephasizing that two sharpshooters stated they could not do what Oswald was claimed to have done. That is the crux issue I see from that article. They couldn't duplicate the shooting, so how could Oswald do it? Or anyone at all? The answer is - they can't. They are simply not able, and have never been able, to duplicate the Oswald shooting in any physical demonstration from the School Book Depository.

Any plausible theory must show repeatability. The Oswald as lone shooter theory fails completely in this example.

oops, at a shoot in central lake mi. called 'second chance' 1990 or '91 the scene was re-enacted. after the first left-handed shooter did it so did nearly everyone else. Masaad Ayoob published results in the fall of that year in 'American Handgunner' and perhaps elsewhere. So it has been repeated, by nearly 250 shooters IIRC.

[turbonium]

"thingy"? ....that's hilarious!! So it''s master of suspense, Alfred Hitchthingy! "Better close that stopthingy or all the liquid will funnel out!"

"I used to have a thingyatoo as a pet, even though they aren't as colorful as peathingys."

"Any thingyneys on this forum? I'm sipping on a smooth thingytail as I write this!!"

[turbonium]

snakeriverrufus said:

p
I've got other issues with his comments,, the tree in the way , difficult for a right handed shooter, etc
LHO shot left handed and trees grow

That assumption was based on the tainted backyard photo. This is a photo of Oswald in training, shooting right-handed. Not that it matters, anyway, as you will see...


Now as for the tree, it's irrelevant because he didn't do the test in Dallas, anyway.

"Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. (Carlos Hathcock quoted from KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90) ( "Quantico" was a scout and sniper school he helped establish at the Marine base in Quantico, Virginia.)

karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Oswald_poor_shot.html

As mentioned, no rifle test has ever included all of the factors under which Oswald would have fired. What would, therefore, constitute a valid "Oswald" rifle test? What would a test need to include in order to qualify as a genuine simulation of Oswald's alleged shooting feat? Such a test would include the following conditions:

* The riflemen cannot have scored above the level of "Sharpshooter" in the Marines (or in the Army).

* The riflemen must have little target practice during the forty days prior to the test.

* The riflemen must have been known to be somewhat uncoordinated while in the Marines (or in the Army).

* The riflemen cannot have any "practice shots" on the day of the test.

* The riflemen must use the alleged murder weapon itself, or another Carcano with a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.

* If a different Carcano is used, it must be established, by expert shooters who fire the rifle just to see how fast it can be operated (with or without minimal accuracy), that the weapon cannot be fired faster than 2.3 seconds per shot.

* The target silhouette must be mounted on a car.

* The car carrying the target must be the same size and shape as Kennedy's limousine.

* There must be a tree that is the same size as the oak tree in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 and that is in the same position in relation to the window and the road on which the target car is moving.

* The riflemen must fire from a window that is open by no more than 15 inches.

* The window from which the riflemen shoot must have two pipes to its left on the inside. These pipes must be positioned so that they inhibit the riflemen from firing markedly to their right. To get an idea of the degree to which the pipes would have inhibited a sharply rightward shot, see Jim Marrs, CROSSFIRE, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1989, seventh photo page, and Robert Groden, THE KILLING OF A PRESIDENT, New York: Viking StudioBooks, 1993, p. 125; cf. Harrison Livingstone, KILLING THE TRUTH, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1993, second page of second photo set.)

* The riflemen must fire from an elevation of 60 feet.

* The riflemen must score at least two hits out of three shots in less than 6 seconds ON THEIR FIRST ATTEMPT.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, then they must so misaim their first shot that they COMPLETELY MISS the target car.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, not only must they completely miss the target car with their initial shot, but they must also score at least two hits out of their next two shots ON THEIR FIRST ATTEMPT.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, they CANNOT deliberately miss the entire target car with their first shot (or with any shot, for that matter), but must miss the whole car without trying to do so.

* The target car must travel the same speeds that the limousine was traveling, and at the appropriate points, from frames 140-313 of the Zapruder film.

No "Oswald" rifle test has ever included all of these conditions. On this basis alone it can be said that no rifleman, no matter how skilled, has ever duplicated Oswald's supposed shooting feat.

The conditions listed above are entirely factual and will not be disputed by anyone familiar with the assassination. Personally, I would add the following two factors, which, though supported by good evidence, are disputed by lone-gunman theorists:

* The riflemen must have a shield of boxes behind them that allows them no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel and fire. (Photos of the supposed sniper's nest show that a gunman would have had no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel.)

* The riflemen must fire two of their shots in no more than 1.5 seconds. (Numerous witnesses, from all over the plaza, said that two of the shots came so closely together that they were almost simultaneous. Some witnesses even said they sounded like a single burst from an automatic rifle.)

In closing, I quote from an internal Warren Commission memo that was written by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler. Liebeler was commenting on the various rifle tests that were done for the Commission, on the marksmen who took part in them, and on the way in which those tests were being cited as "evidence" that Oswald could have done the shooting:

The fact is that most of the experts were much more proficient with a rifle than Oswald could ever be expected to be, and the record indicates that fact. . . . To put it bluntly, that sort of selection from the record could seriously affect the integrity and credibility of the entire report. . . . [These] conclusions will never be accepted by critical persons anyway. (James DiEugenio, DESTINY BETRAYED, Sheridan Square Press, 1992, p. 106; 11 HSCA 231-232)

*****************************************************

Michael T. Griffith is a two-time graduate of the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training Center, San Angelo, Texas, and the author of four books on Mormonism and ancient texts. His articles on the JFK assassination have appeared in DATELINE: DALLAS, in DALLAS '63, and in THE DEALEY PLAZA ECHO, and he is the author of the book COMPELLING EVIDENCE: A NEW LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY (Grand Prairie, TX: JFK-Lancer Productions and Publications, 1996).

[PeterB]

turbonium said:

Now as for the tree, it's irrelevant because he didn't do the test in Dallas, anyway.

Eh?

As mentioned, no rifle test has ever included all of the factors under which Oswald would have fired. What would, therefore, constitute a valid Oswald rifle test? What would a test need to include in order to qualify as a genuine simulation of Oswald's alleged shooting feat? Such a test would include the following conditions:

* The riflemen cannot have scored above the level of Sharpshooter in the Marines (or in the Army).

Okay.

* The riflemen must have little target practice during the forty days prior to the test.

When did he shoot at General Walker?

* The riflemen must have been known to be somewhat uncoordinated while in the Marines (or in the Army).

So what?

* The riflemen cannot have any practice shots on the day of the test.

Okay.

* The riflemen must use the alleged murder weapon itself, or another Carcano with a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.

Why? Oswald was familiar with the rifle as it was. Why can't a recreation shooter use a rifle he's familiar with.

* If a different Carcano is used, it must be established, by expert shooters who fire the rifle just to see how fast it can be operated (with or without minimal accuracy), that the weapon cannot be fired faster than 2.3 seconds per shot.

Uh, okay, I suppose.

* The target silhouette must be mounted on a car.

* The car carrying the target must be the same size and shape as Kennedy's limousine.

* There must be a tree that is the same size as the oak tree in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 and that is in the same position in relation to the window and the road on which the target car is moving.

* The riflemen must fire from a window that is open by no more than 15 inches.

All okay.

* The window from which the riflemen shoot must have two pipes to its left on the inside. These pipes must be positioned so that they inhibit the riflemen from firing markedly to their right. To get an idea of the degree to which the pipes would have inhibited a sharply rightward shot, see Jim Marrs, CROSSFIRE, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1989, seventh photo page, and Robert Groden, THE KILLING OF A PRESIDENT, New York: Viking StudioBooks, 1993, p. 125; cf. Harrison Livingstone, KILLING THE TRUTH, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1993, second page of second photo set.)

Why not just specify a recreation of the room in the TSBD?

* The riflemen must fire from an elevation of 60 feet.

Okay.

* The riflemen must score at least two hits out of three shots in less than 6 seconds ON THEIR FIRST ATTEMPT.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, then they must so misaim their first shot that they COMPLETELY MISS the target car.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, not only must they completely miss the target car with their initial shot, but they must also score at least two hits out of their next two shots ON THEIR FIRST ATTEMPT.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, they CANNOT deliberately miss the entire target car with their first shot (or with any shot, for that matter), but must miss the whole car without trying to do so.

Okay, now this is all silly. Let's assume Oswald was the assassin. He has a rifle and wants to shoot Kennedy. He'll want to get as many shots off as he can, as quickly as he can, until he's sure he's hit his target.

Proponents of the Lone Gunman theory would say that all that has to be recreated is getting 2 hits within 8 or 9 seconds.

Look at it this way: one shot might have been enough if Oswald's first shot had been as accurate as his third turned out to be. Three shots to make one hit in the head seems reasonable for someone who was relatively skilled with a rifle.

* The target car must travel the same speeds that the limousine was traveling, and at the appropriate points, from frames 140-313 of the Zapruder film.

Okay.

No Oswald rifle test has ever included all of these conditions. On this basis alone it can be said that no rifleman, no matter how skilled, has ever duplicated Oswald's supposed shooting feat.

It's hardly a fair test if you include absurd conditions.

The conditions listed above are entirely factual and will not be disputed by anyone familiar with the assassination. Personally, I would add the following two factors, which, though supported by good evidence, are disputed by lone-gunman theorists:

* The riflemen must have a shield of boxes behind them that allows them no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel and fire. (Photos of the supposed sniper's nest show that a gunman would have had no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel.)

* The riflemen must fire two of their shots in no more than 1.5 seconds. (Numerous witnesses, from all over the plaza, said that two of the shots came so closely together that they were almost simultaneous. Some witnesses even said they sounded like a single burst from an automatic rifle.)

Is that supported by jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film?

[turbonium]

Why? Oswald was familiar with the rifle as it was. Why can't a recreation shooter use a rifle he's familiar with.

Because the rifle Oswald had was a piece of crap with bolt & trigger problems.

Why not just specify a recreation of the room in the TSBD?

They are - at least the only relevant area around the window , what more do they need?

Okay, now this is all silly. Let's assume Oswald was the assassin. He has a rifle and wants to shoot Kennedy. He'll want to get as many shots off as he can, as quickly as he can, until he's sure he's hit his target.

Proponents of the Lone Gunman theory would say that all that has to be recreated is getting 2 hits within 8 or 9 seconds.

Look at it this way: one shot might have been enough if Oswald's first shot had been as accurate as his third turned out to be. Three shots to make one hit in the head seems reasonable for someone who was relatively skilled with a rifle.

The point is that it hasn't been and cannot be repeated in any tests. Lone shooter proponents still have to account for all the known conditions agreed upon as listed here. And it doesn't work out in actual recreations.

[PeterB]

Turbonium

You seem to be missing the fact that the supposed efforts of Oswald *have been* recreated, with link provided.

You also seem to be missing the fact that some of the conditions set don't make sense. Why must the recreation require the shooter to miss with his first shot without trying to miss?

[snakeriverrufus]

turbo posted

That assumption was based on the tainted backyard photo. This is a photo of Oswald in training, shooting right-handed. Not that it matters, anyway, as you will see...


No thatis basedd on LHO's neighbors who complained that he often dry-fired his rifle in the back yard.

[turbonium]

You seem to be missing the fact that the supposed efforts of Oswald *have been* recreated, with link provided.

I can't find any test in your link with a moving target, first of all. Unless I've missed noticing it, that alone would negate the tests.

[turbonium]

oops, at a shoot in central lake mi. called 'second chance' 1990 or '91 the scene was re-enacted. after the first left-handed shooter did it so did nearly everyone else. Masaad Ayoob published results in the fall of that year in 'American Handgunner' and perhaps elsewhere. So it has been repeated, by nearly 250 shooters IIRC.

Couldn't find that test in a search. But I did find this link that references your link, Ayoob....

Wound ballistics experts Massad Ayoob and Dr. Roger McCarthy argue the right-frontal explosion is typical of the IMPACT of a high-velocity, frangible missile to the head ("The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View, THE AMERICAN HANDGUNNER, March 1993, "The Ayoob Files" section; Harrison Livingstone, KILLING THE TRUTH, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1993, pp. 156, 237-238). Craig Roberts, a former Marine sniper in Vietnam, likewise argues that the right-frontal explosion is indicative of the IMPACT of a frangible bullet (KILL ZONE, Typhoon Press, 1994, pp. 17-18).

oops.

[Al Johnston]

Soldiers (and presumably marines) are trained to shoot right-handed and left-handed, so they can maximise their cover when shooting from behind an obstacle on the "wrong" side...

[Bob B.]

turbonium said:

I can't find any test in your link with a moving target, first of all. Unless I've missed noticing it, that alone would negate the tests.

I saw a test reenacted on television using a moving target. The shooter made the head shot every time. He said it was actually the easiest shot of the three.

[JayUtah]

Craig Roberts, a former Marine sniper in Vietnam, likewise argues that the right-frontal explosion is indicative of the IMPACT of a frangible bullet...

But from which direction?

[JayUtah]

The shooter made the head shot every time. He said it was actually the easiest shot of the three.

The Army trains riflemen to 300 meters. The Marines train riflemen to 500 meters. Fully half of all Marine recruits qualify at 500 meters in the highest category. The rest qualify at lower ratings, but they all qualify. If they don't, they don't get to be Marines. This training is done using only bead-and-notch sights, not the telescopic sight that Oswald had. The reconstructions all confirm that it is not the "impossible" shot the conspiracy theorists make it out to be -- even the studies (selectively) quoted by the conspiracists.

[Bob B.]

If I remember correctly, the head shot was only 80 yards. It also occurred while the car was mostly moving away from Oswald rather than across his field of vision; therefore, relatively it had the least motion of all the shots.