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Post by turbonium on Jul 14, 2005 1:25:58 GMT -4
What is my motive? How about, where is your logic? Think about what you are saying here...... You say - the Gov't includes the Federal Reserve AND the Treasury . So the profits made by the Federal Reserve (Gov't) from the interest it charges (to the Gov't) are returned to the Treasury (Gov't). So you say it works out fine because that interest (the "profits") is still staying within the Gov't. But you are missing an important detail - where do these recycled "profits", this "extra money", actually originate? - from Joe and Jane Q.Public, the taxpayers!! We have now become the beasts of this burden, without even being the cause of it all!
No, it is true. As I said above, the system does not remain as a closed, sustainable cycle as you state. The interest paid to the Federal Reserve comes from taxes paid to the Gov't as taxes, by the citizens,The interest on the debt keeps increasing despite the taxpayers forking over increasing perecentages of their income.
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Post by turbonium on Jul 14, 2005 1:29:26 GMT -4
Banks refused loans, and demanded payment on outstanding loans, which were not possible to pay back as there was little money in circulation.Nobody pays loans back in currency, do they? I don't understand this obsession with currency. How do you pay back loans?
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 5:50:41 GMT -4
Martin wrote: Which is better, to borrow money from federal reserve, which will return interest each year? Or to borrow from some one else, who will not?I would say it is better for the government to borrow from the someone else, the private individual or institution. Just for once I would like a politician like George Bush to have to sit down with a loan officer at a bank to borrow money to finance his next war, and have the bank turn him down because (a) war doesn't look to be a good investment for the bank, or (b) his excessive borrowing in the past has jacked up interest rates so high that the bank doubts his ability to repay the loan. I ask this question for purposes of deficit, because this is where turbonium tries to deceive us. If spending remains fixed, then printing of currency is a tax, and debt is lower because of this. If incentive effects are taken into account, then maybe spending can change from difficulty of raising funds. Martin
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 6:04:42 GMT -4
First, interest being charged back to oneself is, as I have stated, not something any sane monetary system would do. Maybe it is sane, and maybe it is not, but US government does it. The social security system is also a scam, but not the same type as I was giving as the example. www.heritage.org/Research/SocialSecurity/BG1256.cfmI am discussing the Gov't creating money, spending that money, then needing it's own money repaid to itself with interest! And before you cite payment of interest from government general budget as "proof" that federal reserve is not part of government. I have said social security administration does same thing (maybe you did not know this?). It has a surplus, and purchases government bonds, which are repaid with interest. By you, payment of interest by the government to some one is "proof" that the receiver is not part of the government. So is US social security administration not part of the government, or is your "proof" invalid? Or do you avoid the question fourth time now? Social security is a system taking money already created from the workforce in the form of a deduction (which is of course a tax)., much like income tax but intended for a dedicated fund. It's basically another income tax - taken by the Gov't from the citizens while that Gov't never needed to spend any money itself (the work or services were all done by the taxpayer in exchange for money). The Gov't never spent any money in this example, unlike where it appears to create it then spend it, and is repaid to itself with interest on top. Social security collects money from public, pays some back in benefits, and lends the rest to government general budget, which spends it. Government general budget owes social security many billions, with interest. Is social security administration a private organisation? This is fourth time I am asking... Martin
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 6:28:29 GMT -4
Yes, I want to know what is your motive on this. Why do you not tell us this extremely simple but important fact about operation of federal reserve? Did you not know it? Or do you want to deceive us? How about, where is your logic? Think about what you are saying here...... I do think about what I am saying here. This is why we disagree. You say - the Gov't includes the Federal Reserve AND the Treasury . So the profits made by the Federal Reserve (Gov't) from the interest it charges (to the Gov't) are returned to the Treasury (Gov't). So you say it works out fine because that interest (the "profits") is still staying within the Gov't. But you are missing an important detail - where do these recycled "profits", this "extra money", actually originate? - from Joe and Jane Q.Public, the taxpayers!! And where does this "extra money" actually return? To the same people who paid it in the first place? No, I do not think it is I who have forgotten an important detail... We have now become the beasts of this burden, without even being the cause of it all! Maybe you are beast of burden. Maybe I will be some time also. If I am, it will not be from imaginary conspiracy... No, it is true. As I said above, the system does not remain as a closed, sustainable cycle as you state. The interest paid to the Federal Reserve comes from taxes paid to the Gov't as taxes, by the citizens,The interest on the debt keeps increasing despite the taxpayers forking over increasing perecentages of their income. You have forgotten an important detail, again. The federal reserve returns that interest. Why do you keep ignoring this fact? But you are partly right on this point, the federal reserve does not return all interest received, because it has expenses. These are government expenditures like any other. If the federal reserve reduces its operating budget to zero, then the debt owed from one part of the government to another remains fixed at its current level, because all interest paid is returned. And what is the value of debt which pays no interest and is never repaid? Any one with basic knowledge of finance knows the answer... If you are concerned about debt of US government, I suggest to you to call your representatives and tell them to increases taxes or decrease spending (which ever you like) until budget is in surplus. Or you can tell them about secret federal reserve plot to take over the world if you like... I waste too much time on these people... Martin
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 6:38:38 GMT -4
I have had only a semester of economics--at a community college, nonetheless--and have read a few books on banking, all too long ago, so I have trouble making sense of the Caller/Supinski post. I think you are much in lead of turbonium. Is this fellow suggesting that the Fed should simply print up money to cover the debt? Maybe economics has changed since I learned it, but I don't think that plan will work out the way he imagines. Probably it has changed ;D ;D ;D, but some principles remain the same. Many countries do this, result is hyperinflation. Usually they do this when they can not raise taxes in other ways... I am remembering now that this person who was defender in the evolution trials in US was leader of a populist movement which says that gold standard is conspiracy against people by bankers. Now lack of gold standard is also conspiracy against people by bankers. If some other system is established, I am sure this will be conpiracy against people by bankers also... Martin
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 14, 2005 8:33:01 GMT -4
Many countries do this, result is hyperinflation. Usually they do this when they can not raise taxes in other ways...
Maybe what we should do is the next time a country goes into hyperinflation, we should pitch in and send turbonium there so that he can enjoy the luxury of having billions of dollars/rubles/pounds/whatever the unit of currency is. I remember a picture from World War II, I think, of some kids wheeling a wagon with a huge pile of cash on it to buy something like a loaf of bread.
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 9:27:35 GMT -4
Many countries do this, result is hyperinflation. Usually they do this when they can not raise taxes in other ways...Maybe what we should do is the next time a country goes into hyperinflation, we should pitch in and send turbonium there so that he can enjoy the luxury of having billions of dollars/rubles/pounds/whatever the unit of currency is. ;D ;D ;D He can also start a bank and join federal reserve system, so he can receive huge payments all banks are receiving from federal reserve system... I remember a picture from World War II, I think, of some kids wheeling a wagon with a huge pile of cash on it to buy something like a loaf of bread. Example every one is always using is germany in 1923. But some countries had a hyperinflation after second world war, I think hungarian hyperinflation after the war is worst than in germany in 1923. This can happen quickly. In germnay, it is only a few months. Martin
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Post by echnaton on Jul 14, 2005 10:13:49 GMT -4
As amusing as Turbonium can be at times with his refusal to understand the facts, I am declaring him a troll. He starts threads supporting ideas that require vast conspiracies. He supports them with little but citations from conspiracy mongerers or nothing more that personal interpretations of vague images. His lack of basic knowledge and refusal to acknowledge facts and reason indicates that he can I can neither learn anything from his posts nor use facts and reason to have any effect on him.
Turbo, I used to be concerned that there was some looming crisis in the world just ahead of me. I went to college and learned something about the world, which helped alot. Then one day I came to the realization that the possible crises that I saw in the future were caused by not viewing the world objectively but rather seeing everything as a extension of myself. Once I came to the realization that the problems in the world are not my responsibility and the world at large doesn’t care at all about me, I could focus on those people that I could actually help and those that do care about me to make real emotional connections.
People have been predicting the end of the world or the country or way of life in one form or another throughout recorded history. Guess what, it is mostly used to manipulate others because the world is not going to end. Turbo, you need to stop worrying about grand conspiracies that will change the future, stop looking for armchairs in crinkled Mylar and start trying to help individuals that have real and immediate problems. You seem to care about what is happening in the world, but promoting this conspiracy nonsense is not going to do good for anyone. Helping others is the only way to make the world a better place to live.
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 14, 2005 13:02:33 GMT -4
How do you pay back loans?
I write a check every month. The instructions always say to not send cash.
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 14, 2005 16:44:48 GMT -4
I think hungarian hyperinflation after the war is worst than in germany in 1923.
Oh, Hungarian hyperinflation was astronomical. It required 828 octillion pengos after the war to equal the value of 1 pengo before the war. (1 octillion is a 1 followed by 27 zeros.)
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Post by turbonium on Jul 14, 2005 19:50:58 GMT -4
How do you pay back loans?I write a check every month. The instructions always say to not send cash. You said nobody uses money or currency to pay back loans - you meant to say "nobody uses cash!! It's still money coming outta your account, paying back the loan, joe. Note that they were unable to pay back these loans - if you've got no money in your account, you can send all the checks you want, but they won't exactly clear, will they?
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Post by turbonium on Jul 14, 2005 20:09:19 GMT -4
As amusing as Turbonium can be at times with his refusal to understand the facts, I am declaring him a troll. He starts threads supporting ideas that require vast conspiracies. He supports them with little but citations from conspiracy mongerers or nothing more that personal interpretations of vague images. His lack of basic knowledge and refusal to acknowledge facts and reason indicates that he can I can neither learn anything from his posts nor use facts and reason to have any effect on him. Turbo, I used to be concerned that there was some looming crisis in the world just ahead of me. I went to college and learned something about the world, which helped alot. Then one day I came to the realization that the possible crises that I saw in the future were caused by not viewing the world objectively but rather seeing everything as a extension of myself. Once I came to the realization that the problems in the world are not my responsibility and the world at large doesn’t care at all about me, I could focus on those people that I could actually help and those that do care about me to make real emotional connections. People have been predicting the end of the world or the country or way of life in one form or another throughout recorded history. Guess what, it is mostly used to manipulate others because the world is not going to end. Turbo, you need to stop worrying about grand conspiracies that will change the future, stop looking for armchairs in crinkled Mylar and start trying to help individuals that have real and immediate problems. You seem to care about what is happening in the world, but promoting this conspiracy nonsense is not going to do good for anyone. Helping others is the only way to make the world a better place to live. Flame and pontificate all you want - the lack of any substance in your post is ironic considering you accuse me of the same.
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 20:11:09 GMT -4
How do you pay back loans?I write a check every month. The instructions always say to not send cash. You said nobody uses money or currency to pay back loans - you meant to say "nobody uses cash!! It's still money coming outta your account, paying back the loan, joe. Note that they were unable to pay back these loans - if you've got no money in your account, you can send all the checks you want, but they won't exactly clear, will they? He said currency. You said money. The first quote is from you, the second quote is from him. The thread history is here for any one to see. Do you really think you can deceive any one in this way? Martin
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Post by martin on Jul 14, 2005 20:29:08 GMT -4
Flame and pontificate all you want - the lack of any substance in your post is ironic considering you accuse me of the same. Echanaton can say for himself, but I think problem is not that your posts lack substance. I think problem is that substance contained in your posts is false... So far, I do not think you have deceived any one. Do you keep trying? Martin
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