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Post by PeterB on Sept 19, 2005 19:09:30 GMT -4
Edmond
I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but it's good to hear that you and your relatives are okay.
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Post by PeterB on Sept 19, 2005 19:12:11 GMT -4
EdmondDantes said:
Dead Hoosiers asked:
I imagine that the levees were seriously damaged, allowing water to seep into the structure. In the 21 hours after the surge, they would have been slowly weakening, until they eventually collapsed. Didn't you ever make dirt dams in the playground and make them fail?
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Post by EdmondDantes on Sept 19, 2005 19:31:09 GMT -4
Please explain why it took the levees 21 hours to break after the storm surge.
Happily. The dirt in the levees over time soaks up the water. As the levees soak up more water, they weaken and can collaps like what happens in mud slides. It takes a while for them to soak up the water. This same thing happened in 1973 when the Mississippi river was at a very high level. After a few weeks of high water, the levee in the lower coast began to leak, then break.
[Don't you mean that FEMA commands the Salvation Army and the Red Cross in an emergency? It has been well documented that these relief agencies as well as firefighters and regular citizens were refused admittance to the city.
No, that is not the truth. FEMA does NOT command the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. They never have. It was the State of Louisiana who refused to let them in. Remember, I get this information from people that were actually there, not filtered through news organizations or conspiracy sights. An aide to the governor herself admitted to the reasons that they refused access. By the way, it was officials from the Red Cross and the Salvation Army that stated that it was the State that refused them, not FEMA.
FEMA was already there sitting on its hands while these things occurred. In fact, that's WHY those atrocities occurred. It had nothing to do with the governor refusing to relinquish control of the National Guard to the feds, if that's what you're saying. (But I'm glad your in-laws were rescued in time.)
No, again your facts are incorrect. It was the State's Department who held back the relief organizations. They themselves stated that they did not want the relief sent in because they did not want to attract more people to the Superdome and Convention Center because they wanted people to leave those places, not attract more. The State admitted that was their policy. You can argue whether that was good policy, but it was state policy not FEMA. But yes, the governor did sit on her hands for 24 hours trying to make up her mind whether or not to let the feds take over the whole situation. She also delayed making the call calling for a mandatory evacuation. I know about that because I was waiting for that order. It came much too late. I left long before she made up her mind. But it was her call.
You were in Jackson, MS, weren't you? So you're getting your information second-hand just like me. The politicians involved were screaming for Brown's blood. Why do you think he was forced to resign as head of FEMA? Because he did such a great job?
Ummm, we were talking about blowing levees. He handled many hurricanes last year and everything was fine. There has been no investigation as to everything that happened, but even if he blew it, that is much different than being part of a conspiracy. Many times people resign if they have become a lightning rod of criticism whether it is true or not. But the fact is the mayor and governor blew it much more than FEMA. They were primarily resposible for the initial response and they did a terrible job. Yes I was not in the city, but I talked directly to people who were involved. Cops, firemen, Guardsman, Marines and family. I did not get the information from the media or conspiracy sites. Did FEMA blow things? Sure, I know they did, but the city and the State share a great deal of the blame for what happened. What pisses me off is that there are many with hate in their hearts who are more interested in scoring political points and playing stupid conspiracy games than they are in determining what actually happened and doing something to actually help. This dumba$$ effort to divide people and cause suspicion does not help and does a great deal to hinder the efforts needed to recover. I can tell you from someone who is personally involved, it is not appreciated and not wanted.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2005 19:55:58 GMT -4
I addressed issues other than the purported blowing of the levees because you addressed them. The levee-sabotage issue has not yet been proven and I haven't stated otherwise. Earwitnesses heard the explosions. And we're talking concrete levees here, not earthen.
Has the relief effort been hindered by Brown's removal? Would it be hindered if other politicos were held responsible? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, the help the Gulf states is receiving right now is because outraged American citizens like me made phone calls and demanded action. Do you call demanding action and accountability "hate?" When "they" saw the rest of the country was watching, they moved their butts.
So just say "thank you, DH and you other caring Americans, for taking the time to make those calls demanding that the government do its job. It paid off."
Sniff before you bark, Dantes.
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Post by PeterB on Sept 19, 2005 20:07:38 GMT -4
Dead Hoosiers said:
Earwitnesses heard explosions. How do they know where those explosions were or what they were? Following the storms and evacuations, all sorts of untended things could have blown up.
And if they were concrete levees being blown up, is there any evidence of nearby houses being damaged by flying debris or by the blast itself?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2005 20:11:10 GMT -4
They know what they heard. Explosions. Whether they are correct in stating it was the government blowing up the levees remains to be proven.
No information at this time of other damage.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Sept 19, 2005 20:24:03 GMT -4
I guess you didn't see the natural gas leaks, or the gas stations that were destroyed by the hurricane.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2005 20:40:47 GMT -4
I guess you didn't see the natural gas leaks, or the gas stations that were destroyed by the hurricane. Of course heard. I gave his direct question a direct answer.
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Post by rocketdad on Sept 19, 2005 22:38:57 GMT -4
this may get me banned, but I've been trying to Quit anyway: Dead Hoosiers: You are a donkey's ankle. Your comments to Dantes are rude, insensitive ignorant and arrogant! Shame on you. And you call yourself a Christian. For Shame!! First of all, do you know what a levee looks like? Do you know what a "concrete" levee is? Have you ever been to NOLA? Or do you just read websites by sociopathic morons that feed your pseudo-christian revelationist paranoia and decide you "know the truth?" People in NOLA hear something loud, and YOU decide they "know" what they heard. How much experience do you or any of us modern city-dwellers have with the sound of explosives? Huh? Huh? What do you think a two-foot thick concrete wall sounds like when it fails? A frigging twig-snap? How long do you think it takes for water running down a 45-degree slope of dirt backfill to erode enough for the water to push over the concrete wall it's holding up? Do you know any geology? www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68746,00.html www.boingboing.net/2005/09/13/katrina_geographer_o.htmlWhat is your area of expertice, anyway? Why do you belive whatever one guy with a video to sell tells you and not belive ANYTHING else anybody with knowledge training skill personal experience education tells you to the contrary? Is your tinfoil hat on too tight? people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/Margamatix may irritate me, but I think he just wants something to read with his name on it. YOU are why I keep trying to stay away from this site. Get a grip, lady, and read something OFFLINE. I can recommend ScienceNews. www.sciencenews.org/UGH!! !Rocketdad!
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 20, 2005 0:06:31 GMT -4
You are way out of line rocketdad.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Sept 20, 2005 3:16:21 GMT -4
Dead Hoosiers: You are a donkey's ankle. Your comments to Dantes are rude, insensitive ignorant and arrogant! Shame on you. And you call yourself a Christian. For Shame!! The worst of it is, she seems to think she's doing Edmond some sort of favour
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Post by EdmondDantes on Sept 20, 2005 12:19:21 GMT -4
I As a matter of fact, the help the Gulf states is receiving right now is because outraged American citizens like me made phone calls and demanded action. BS. You forget, my cousins were there and were rescued. The storm had passed and they had minor flooding. They were outside and some neighbors said "run for your lives" when they saw the huge amount of water coming at them after the levee break. Within a very short time the water was two floors deep in her house. They were trapped on their third floor. Within a VERY SHORT time after the levee break, helicopters were on the scene and pulling people to safety. The rescue efforts were well under way before you ever heard that the levee broke. Yes, I was in Jackson, but they do have cable TV in Jackson. I was watching what was going on. I watched the helicopters rescuing people on Tuesday. I saw "Camp Cloverleaf" at Causeway and I-10 with all of the many helicoptes landing, the lines of buses and ambulances there. The efforts were underway, but you have to remember this was a huge area they had to deal with. 80% of the city was flooded. It was not easy to get to everybody. But also remember that the destruction went across the Mississippi coast and into Mobile. That is a HUGE area. I have driven it many many times. Bay St. Louis was totally wiped out and so was Waveland. The twinspan was destroyed, Highway 90, the bridge over Bay St. Louis as well as many other key bridges and highways. This made it extremely difficult to get in supplies and equipment. Equipment and other key assets had been readied AHEAD OF TIME and the plan was to fly them into Alvin Calendar and NO International. After the storm, Alvin Calendar, which is in Belle Chase, was flooded in and so was NO International. So the assets had to be flown into Alexandria and trucked in. But remember that some key bridges were out. It was a very difficult situation. Of course, if you just get your information from the national news outlets, you would have no idea what was going on. I was watching them and they were getting things wrong all of the time. They would show shots of Gulfport MS and tell you that it was New Orleans. They would talk about neighborhoods on the east bank and say they were on the westbank. I have since talked to many family and friends and we all agree that the national coverage was just dreadful. I have family and friends that were taking part in the relief efforts. They risked their lives, got sick, worked themselves to exhaustion and they did so from the very point when the storm passed. They didn't have to wait for you or any other person sitting on his/her arse in the comfort of his/her own home to phone anybody. They got to work right away without your help thank you. But just like the self-appointed critics and media people, you have no idea of the scope and difficulty of the problem. I lived through Betsy in 65. I drove through the destruction of the Mississippi coast after Camile in 69 and I have been to the Alabama coast after Ivan. This storm caused more destruction than those combined. I have also been through many major floods in New Orleans and seen how hard it is to move around and how hard it is to get to people, I had to rescue my own 2 year old son in one of those floods. But nothing equals the problems related to this storm. Take a breath and appreciate the problems involved and cut a little slack. For years in NO, we have dealt with the predictions of a cat 3 or 4 storm hitting NO. The estimates of deaths were in the range of 15,000 to 20,000. It appears that after this huge storm, actual deaths may be around 1,000. Maybe we should thank people for doing such a great job in keeping the casualty number so low. It was good that the President pushed the governor to call for an evacuation, even though she did wait a precious 24 hours to "think it over." (her own words) It was also fortunate that the President declared the areas in Louisiana to be a disaster area BEFORE the storm even hit. ( I watched that myself.) We are lucky that assets were put in position BEFORE the storm even though the destruction made it hard for them to get them in. It was fortunate for my wife's cousins that the rescue helicopters were ready and waiting and were there so quickly when they needed them. Were mistakes made? Of course. Any huge event like this has many mistakes. The D-Day invasion had many mistakes and things went completely wrong and they had years to plan for it; for this there was only a couple of days. (Of course I don't remember one person demanding the resignation of Eisenhower or FDR.) Should an investigation be done to see what went wrong and how to handle things better in the future. Absolutely. That is critical. But when you cry out for "accountablility" and want heads to roll or people removed within 36 hours of such an event, that is hate. It shows someone more interested in hurting someone, destroying a reputation, than doing something constructive to help. That is people wanting blood rather than actually trying to help. You know, less than two days after the storm, I was desperatly trying to get information about my neighborhood and missing family members. When I would pull up news sites what I found was mostly (75%) headlines about how the storm would effect Bush politically, accusations of racism, finger pointing by local and state government officials, democratic senate leaders demanding investigations and the firing of the head of FEMA. I needed information, and all I was getting is people playing politics and trying to shift blame. It was disgusting. So yes, when so much of the time on the news is wasted on political games, false acuasations of racism and finger-pointing rather than getting out vital information, that hinders the relief and recovery. Just a final thought. The FEMA response for Katrina was quicker than for Andrew, Hugo or Ivan. So why the political firestorm unless there are other motives present.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 20, 2005 14:00:55 GMT -4
I take no issue with your post in general, as I am sure it is accurate. It just doesn't address the plight of the 60,000 people left to rot at the Superdome for a week. The media can't cover everything and granted, they focused on what went wrong as opposed to what went right, but what went wrong went so wrong it goes beyond incompetence; it's criminal.
I don't dismiss your account of what happened. Neither do I dismiss out of hand the numerous reports of FEMA, Homeland Security agencies or the National Guard preventing the willing from rendering assistance. Neither you nor your relatives could see everything that was going on, nor could we armchair generals. We acted on what we saw (predominantly what was happening at the Superdome), and acted on it. I don't know how you can call that hate. We'll never know how much worse things would have been had we been content to do nothing.
Agreed that coverage was bad. Now I believe it's getting worse and the whitewash is in full swing. The category 5 factor and the evacuation caught the media's attention. Like 9/11, lots of things won't come to light until much later. There's plenty of blame to go around, as well as praise.
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Post by EdmondDantes on Sept 21, 2005 0:56:40 GMT -4
A little further information:
The discord began Aug. 27, when Mr. Bush asked Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco to order an evacuation of New Orleans. Mrs. Blanco did not issue the order until Aug. 28, a day before Hurricane Katrina made landfall. Mrs. Blanco also neglected to ask the president for federal troops when she wrote him a letter on Aug. 27 and when she spoke with him on Aug. 29. She had not made the request even on Aug. 31, when she gave a series of television interviews in Baton Rouge. 'I really need to call for the military,' she told her press secretary between interviews. 'And I should have started that in the first call.' Later that day, she asked the White House for troops, which were dispatched to assist Louisiana National Guard forces. Mrs. Blanco hesitated again when she met Sept. 2 with Mr. Bush, who offered to have the federal government take over the chaotic evacuation. Mrs. Blanco said she needed 24 hours to make a decision and ultimately rejected the federal offer. Mrs. Blanco refused to enforce the order of Mayor Nagin. Mr. Nagin later told CNN that Mrs. Blanco and Mr. Bush needed to 'get in sync.' But within days, Mr. Nagin and Mrs. Blanco were feuding with each other over whether New Orleans residents should be ordered to leave their homes. 'My mandatory evacuation is still in effect,' Mr. Nagin said Sept. 6. But Mrs. Blanco refused to enforce the order, saying she needed more time for scientists to test the toxicity of floodwaters.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 21, 2005 2:22:50 GMT -4
I've got a problem with mandatory evacuations that don't include moving the sick and elderly from hospitals. What the hell was he thinking? Do you know if any effort at all was made to move those folks before the hurricane hit?
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