Post by Jason Thompson on Jun 23, 2006 4:37:14 GMT -4
So Von Braun is a beaten wife now !
Stop being so literal. It was an analogy to point out that, as lofty as people's ideas can be, it is not as easy to get oneself out of a difficult and unpleasant situation as people who have never been in such a situation seem to think. As I said, von Braun was undertaking what was considered vital war work, and therefore stopping work on the V2 for any reason would be considered treasonous behaviour and punished accordingly. Again I draw your attention to the fact that he was arrested and imprisoned for merely considering alternative applications for his rocket technology, and only a personal appeal to Hitler by Albert Speer regarding his indispensibility to the war effort at this stage secured his release.
Silly me I thought those dudes in the Deaths-head caps were the very ones doing all the dominating,intimidating and exterminating.
Don't be naive. That is an absurd generalisation. Von Braun was not in charge of an extermination camp organising the systematic genocide of entire ethnic groups. There were many SS members who were working in such camps who absolutely despised what they were being ordered to do. Some of them refused and got shot. Some of them disobeyed orders. Some of them tried as hard as they could to minimise the number of people killed. Some of them lacked the courage to stand up to the regime, seeing first hand what it was capable of, did what they were told and hated themselves for it. Now do we tar them all with the same caricature of sneering sadists? Is that fair?
when you join that particular club that Von Braun was in I think you exclude yourself from a presumption of innocence at the very least.
I disagree. Circumstances change rapidly during war. Von Braun joined the SS prior to war breaking out. He was directed to take charge of a construction facility that used slave labour. He did not seek the job, nor do I see any sign that he enjoyed it. He did not advise the use of slave labour to build the V2s. That decision was made and foisted upon him to speed production. And what could he do once there that would not get him shot? As he himself correctly observed, had he resigned in protest, someone else would have replaced him and the camp would have continued unchanged. Putting your life on the line for lofty ideals is all very well, but what's the point if it won't change anything except how history will view the man? Had I been in such a situation I doubt I'd have put how history will view me over my own life and an opportunity to make up for things at a later point. When things all went to pot, was von Braun concerned only with his own skin? No. He organised the safe evacuation of his staff and led them through SS checkpoints to surrender to the Allies, without losing anyone. Isn't that worthy of some praise? Or does his brief time running a facility that used slaves overshadow everything he ever did afterwards?
Essentially, as far as I can see, von Braun found himself in a situation that was highly unpleasant, and so far the criticism of him seems to be based mostly on the fact that no-one saw any public signs of remorse. Would we aqcuit him if he had turned into an emotional wreck afterwards and spent all his time crying his heart out at the appallingly inhuman conditions he was obliged to work in? It seems all too easy to equate a lack of excessive and obvious emotional response to being completely callous. It's happened to me on numerous occasions. Von Braun did not cry his heart out about the use of slave labour in his construction facility, therefore he must have enjoyed or at the very least not cared about it. Well, that's just ludicrous in my view.
Stop being so literal. It was an analogy to point out that, as lofty as people's ideas can be, it is not as easy to get oneself out of a difficult and unpleasant situation as people who have never been in such a situation seem to think. As I said, von Braun was undertaking what was considered vital war work, and therefore stopping work on the V2 for any reason would be considered treasonous behaviour and punished accordingly. Again I draw your attention to the fact that he was arrested and imprisoned for merely considering alternative applications for his rocket technology, and only a personal appeal to Hitler by Albert Speer regarding his indispensibility to the war effort at this stage secured his release.
Silly me I thought those dudes in the Deaths-head caps were the very ones doing all the dominating,intimidating and exterminating.
Don't be naive. That is an absurd generalisation. Von Braun was not in charge of an extermination camp organising the systematic genocide of entire ethnic groups. There were many SS members who were working in such camps who absolutely despised what they were being ordered to do. Some of them refused and got shot. Some of them disobeyed orders. Some of them tried as hard as they could to minimise the number of people killed. Some of them lacked the courage to stand up to the regime, seeing first hand what it was capable of, did what they were told and hated themselves for it. Now do we tar them all with the same caricature of sneering sadists? Is that fair?
when you join that particular club that Von Braun was in I think you exclude yourself from a presumption of innocence at the very least.
I disagree. Circumstances change rapidly during war. Von Braun joined the SS prior to war breaking out. He was directed to take charge of a construction facility that used slave labour. He did not seek the job, nor do I see any sign that he enjoyed it. He did not advise the use of slave labour to build the V2s. That decision was made and foisted upon him to speed production. And what could he do once there that would not get him shot? As he himself correctly observed, had he resigned in protest, someone else would have replaced him and the camp would have continued unchanged. Putting your life on the line for lofty ideals is all very well, but what's the point if it won't change anything except how history will view the man? Had I been in such a situation I doubt I'd have put how history will view me over my own life and an opportunity to make up for things at a later point. When things all went to pot, was von Braun concerned only with his own skin? No. He organised the safe evacuation of his staff and led them through SS checkpoints to surrender to the Allies, without losing anyone. Isn't that worthy of some praise? Or does his brief time running a facility that used slaves overshadow everything he ever did afterwards?
Essentially, as far as I can see, von Braun found himself in a situation that was highly unpleasant, and so far the criticism of him seems to be based mostly on the fact that no-one saw any public signs of remorse. Would we aqcuit him if he had turned into an emotional wreck afterwards and spent all his time crying his heart out at the appallingly inhuman conditions he was obliged to work in? It seems all too easy to equate a lack of excessive and obvious emotional response to being completely callous. It's happened to me on numerous occasions. Von Braun did not cry his heart out about the use of slave labour in his construction facility, therefore he must have enjoyed or at the very least not cared about it. Well, that's just ludicrous in my view.