Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Oct 3, 2006 11:10:28 GMT -4
Do you think Osama is acting in God's name? Do you think Joshua was acting in God's name?I believe that both acted on what they have taken to be messages of support from their respective deities. Whether I believe one, both or neither are correct is irrelevant, what they believe is the question. Do you think that OBL has less evidence for his "doing God's will" than you do when you do "God's will" for your church? So by your thinking Joshua = Osama. Both are equally guilty of committing atrocities in God's name, and it doesn't matter if one was correct and the other is not.
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Post by gillianren on Oct 3, 2006 15:05:55 GMT -4
So by your thinking Joshua = Osama. Both are equally guilty of committing atrocities in God's name, and it doesn't matter if one was correct and the other is not. You believe Joshua was acting in God's name. You have no more evidence than the rest of us.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Oct 3, 2006 15:33:43 GMT -4
My question is more of the nature of "if it really is God's will to commit mass murder, is it still an atrocity"? Or on a more basic level "is it possible for God to order a person to kill someone else?"
I think that is a question worth some debate, and it gets to the whole heart of what the Pope was talking about the other day when he offended muslims.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Oct 3, 2006 15:47:16 GMT -4
My question is more of the nature of "if it really is God's will to commit mass murder, is it still an atrocity"? Or on a more basic level "is it possible for God to order a person to kill someone else?" But that would go against the Ten Commandments. It says "Thou shall not kill", not "Thou shall not kill unless I tell you to". God would not tell anyone kill another person if he had already commanded that we never do so.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Oct 3, 2006 15:56:04 GMT -4
That's why it's an interesting question. "Thou shalt not kill" in Exodus, but also (speaking of Jericho) "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword...So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was noised throughout all the country," in Joshua, only forty years later.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Oct 3, 2006 16:09:12 GMT -4
So by your thinking Joshua = Osama.
That's not what I said. I stated that by my opinion or thinking it doesn't matter, what matters is what they are thinking. You claimed that OBL had no moral compass, this is unture if he believes that he is doing God's will. Whether he's insane and hears voices, is deluded and sees God speakng in unrelated events that aren't really God's voice, or whether he really is spoken to by God is also irrelevant, it's the fact that he believes that what he is doing is just from the Muslim POV. Just because your view, or my view differs, doesn't change his, and his is the only one that counts when discussing his moral compass.
I'm quite sure had you asked the citizens of Jericho if the destruction of their city was an atrocity, and if Josuha had no moral compass, they'd have agreed with both wholeheartedly.
By the way, I'd note that there are far more Muslims in the World than Mormans. They claim that the Koran is the perfect unchanged book and last revelation from God and would also say that they are right, and you are wrong. What more evidence have you got that your beliefs are right and theirs are not?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Oct 3, 2006 16:26:28 GMT -4
Actually no, I claimed that Osama bin Laden does indeed have a moral compass, just that it's pointing in the wrong direction. In other words, although he acts according to a moral code that code is in fact incorrect.
Whether he is correct in his belief would seem to be the most important aspect of the question for a religious person, since judeo-christians at least believe that God can in fact order massacres (Jericho), or carry them out himself (the flood), actions which are not so different than what bin Laden has done.
I wouldn't say that Islam as a whole believes the same things bin Laden does. Are there more muslims who believe bin Laden is correct than there are Mormons? I hope not.
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Post by gillianren on Oct 4, 2006 0:54:24 GMT -4
I don't believe God ever asks people to kill others, but I must point out that a more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder"; there are quite a few bits of the Bible that explain, for example, how capital punishment should be carried out.
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Post by captain swoop on Oct 4, 2006 10:05:09 GMT -4
Murdering your enemy and claiming god told you to do it is a cop out!
Joshua and Osama are both murderers, I can't see a difference. Just because Joshua claims your god told him to do it and it got written down in some old book you take tyo be the word of your god doesn't make it right. If you think it does then you are as seriously deranged as Osama.
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