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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 11, 2006 15:41:34 GMT -4
In the latest issue of Newsweek, there is a feature story about human DNA and our place in the family of apes. The article states what has been known for a long time but few people seem to have gotten the news, it seems. Neanderthals and modern humans are not directly related. Neanderthals are not a step in the evolutionary staircase to modern humans.
The article also stated that Neanderthals brains were physically larger than modern humans. This is something I had forgotten (maybe because of my smaller-than-Neanderthal brain).
So here is my Cro-Magnon Conspiracy Theory. What if we are the lesser of the species? Neanderthals lived for about 400 thousand years before we came into prehistoric Europe. They had lived in harmony with nature (something we have shown incapacity to do). They survived two ice ages (something we probably could not pull off). Maybe they were the bright ones and we are the monkeys. Perhaps even they were the first to craft tools, wear clothes, think of a written language. And like monkeys we just copied them.
Anyone care to defend your species?
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Oct 11, 2006 16:46:21 GMT -4
Whale brains are physically larger than those of humans but they haven't invented anything.
If your primary criteria is "length of survival of species" then we'll have to wait several hundred thousand years to determine if we beat them or not. If it's "largest population size" or "artifacts created" or "most things invented" then we are the obvious winners.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 11, 2006 17:01:34 GMT -4
I'll play! But I'll be defending my Genus. I don't discriminate against Homos of any kind. Neandertal (note the spelling) brains ran a large range of sizes, much wider range than Cro-Magnon (that's us). Some were larger in volume, some were smaller. All neandertal brains show some distinct features that are different than Cro-Magnon brains. For example, neandertal skulls have a pronounced bulge on the back, called the "occipital bun." With only bones to study, this feature's purpose is unclear, but corresponds with visual-processing areas of our brains. Neandertal skulls have a more distinct brow-ridge than "humans," as the Cro-Magnons call themselves. This brow-ridge is not a feature in itself as it's absence is due to a larger forebrain structure in Cro-magnon brains. Neandertals were indeed a successful species in their time and space, but their toolkit shows almost no variation from the earliest finds to the latest. They did not innovate, but maintained a "stereotyped" tool design through their entire history. Even the dullest human can be pretty innovative. Neandertal was a side-shoot from the family. Some scholars argue that pronounced brow-ridges and "monobrow" facial hair suggest that Neandertals and Cro-Magnons interbred to some extent. Nothing conclusive has been proven, though. There are finds in caves that suggest co-habitation, and I'm sure that given enough rotting fruit, a dark cave on a cold winter night could prove to be quite the party. Homo erectus ("upright man") and Homo habilis ("handy man", named for the extensive took kit associated with fossil finds, but predating erectus) were both very successful species. "Java man" and "Peking man" were both Homo erectus. Homo erectus was the most successful hominid thus far, in my opinion. H. habilis had a pretty good toolkit, but considering the estimated brain power, the H. erectus journeys into Asia rank right up there with Cro-Magnons colonizing the arctic areas of Siberia, Alaska and Canada, and roaming all the way down the Americas. They lasted longer than any others thus far, invented some of of the toolkit used by H. sapiens neandertalensis, probably had fire and sewn clothing technology, and several kinds of tents. In fact, I'll change my Avatar to an erectus for a while to honor them. {edit - post written in two sessions}
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 12, 2006 19:46:49 GMT -4
Whale brains are physically larger than those of humans but they haven't invented anything. How could they? A brain in a jar might be smarter and it could not invent anything either. Whale songs, I am told, are complex and they repeat them and if they stop they pick them up where they left off -- and they could not write them down.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 12, 2006 21:12:01 GMT -4
Clever whales invent "catchy" tunes, then those whales become wildly popular with the cetacian media and get all the sex. After that, other whales get the new tune stuck in their heads and sing it and nothing else for the next six months.
Whales tried to invent sheetmusic, but squids were too difficult to grasp, and manta rays wouldn't hold still to write it on.
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Post by echnaton on Oct 13, 2006 9:17:41 GMT -4
Then the evil music companies came along and stole their tunes making huge profits from the unacknowledged work of the whales.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Oct 13, 2006 14:51:30 GMT -4
Now see, if the whales were really that much smarter than humans they wouldn't have been cheated out of their royalties.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 13, 2006 21:08:39 GMT -4
Still, when people claim that dolphins and whales are not smarter than us just because they have not built cities, it only shows how we lack the capacity to consider that they don't have arms and legs and hands with thumbs. Without these things we would not be able to survive. And yet they do survive well without them. Dolphins manage to organize and coordinate hunts.
I will get back to the Neanderthal subject soon.
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Post by echnaton on Oct 13, 2006 22:59:40 GMT -4
Now see, if the whales were really that much smarter than humans they wouldn't have been cheated out of their royalties. Not at all. It is just that they are so much more evolved and living at one with nature, that the concept of theft or even property are unknown to them.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Oct 14, 2006 2:10:59 GMT -4
I like whales and dolphins - I've seen both in the wild - but I am unconvinced that they are any more intelligent than an ape or chimp at best.
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reynoldbot
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Post by reynoldbot on Oct 14, 2006 4:34:04 GMT -4
I think people tend to confuse types of intelligences. Brain power is a common term in those discussions, which in my book is seperate from intelligence. Scientists can estimate based on brain sizes and memory tests and the like, but we will never know really what it is like to be animal like a dolphin, whale, or primate. Apples and oranges.
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Post by echnaton on Oct 14, 2006 10:17:45 GMT -4
but we will never know really what it is like to be animal like a dolphin, whale, or primate.
When I take my kids to the zoo, I can’t help but wonder what the apes really see. There is a male orangutan that sometimes sits next to the glass wall on the pen. I love to try to put myself behind his eyes and imagine what he thinks. Is he as conscious of being watched as we are of watching? Does he recognize our faces as being similar to his or are we enemies? What does he think the kids that make faces at him while he calmly sits there are like the baby in the pen? When he moves off is it because he is bored of us, tired of being watched or just wants to find another place?
But of course it is all projection, since as you say, we can never really get into the mind of another animal whose mind is so different from ours. But my kids get bored with the apes far sooner than I do.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Oct 15, 2006 2:39:48 GMT -4
Yeah that's the whole point. No matter where science takes us, all we can ever do is project ourselves onto the minds of other animals. It's the same as the Bart Sibrel interview. HB's say that Aldrin acted suspiciously, that he should have acted this way or that. But we are not Buzz Aldrin, and all we can do is project ourselves into his situation and pondered what we would have done.
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Post by Count Zero on Oct 16, 2006 3:49:19 GMT -4
I like whales and dolphins - I've seen both in the wild - but I am unconvinced that they are any more intelligent than an ape or chimp at best. The Onion - (language warning) ;D
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Oct 16, 2006 11:34:08 GMT -4
I like that Onion story. It reminds me of the Simpsons Halloween episode where the dolphins chased the humans into the sea. My favorite line there is Homer saying "I guess you're kind of upset about all that junk we've been dumping in the sea," and the dolphin leader says "That was YOU?!"
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