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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 6:33:30 GMT -4
it does not apply in wartime and especially overseas. I'm sorry, Bill. Exactly how much of Lincoln's presidency wasn't wartime? And what makes you think that limit exists in the first place? . The limits to free speech helped win the war against the Japanese. Remember "loose lips sink ships". What are you sorry about? Treason by definition includes providing comfort an encouragement to an enemy during war. Besides Free Speech is not in every country just because it is in the United States. it is not universal. They did it outside the boundaries of the United States. They did this overseas. Americans who were found just giving pep talks to the Taliban were also rounded up. They could do it in Detroit but when they leave the country, the rules do not apply.
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Post by Data Cable on Oct 26, 2006 7:57:29 GMT -4
For instance, Free Speech does not apply to telling the enemy troop movements, or providing them moral support and comfort. And fortunately, the statement "Just so you know, we're ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas" constitutes neither of the above.
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Post by echnaton on Oct 26, 2006 9:09:01 GMT -4
Whatever you say, Bill.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 11:09:04 GMT -4
What do you mean? Whatever I say what?
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 11:20:44 GMT -4
For instance, Free Speech does not apply to telling the enemy troop movements, or providing them moral support and comfort. And fortunately, the statement "Just so you know, we're ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas" constitutes neither of the above. How do you interpret that? What does that mean to you? Osama bin Laden felt that 911 was a good thing because he interpreted Americans buying the Quran as proof that he was bringing Islam to the infidels. It was a very weird view. But he was looking for any reason to justify and support his and his friends actions. Bin Laden got it wrong. He misinterpreted what was being said and done. On the other hand having the equivalent of three cheerleaders right from the heart of Bush's homeland come out, go to another country (apparently so they can be safe to say what they feel) and cheer Al Qaeda on, is another story. Free Speech does not apply overseas. People get used to the fact that they have the freedoms to protest and cause civil disobedience within the united states and so they are shocked when it doesn't work when they leave the united states. another classic example are the human shields who went to Iraq to protest and cause civil disobedience. They were going to tie themselves to buildings that happened to be near military targets. When the Marines told them that they were going to become grease for their tank threads, they were dismayed.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 12:00:09 GMT -4
During World War II, there were a lot of people who did not understand why the United States was going to war with Germany when it was japan that had attacked us. ]
Still, the music group, The Georgia Girls from Warm Springs, Georgia did not go to Europe and say to their fans "Ya'll we are really ashamed that FDR has a vacation cottage in Georga". If they had, clearly they would imply that they supported Hitler and disagreed with the war (it was all about oil, right?). And even worse, it would suggest that perhaps Georgians held the same beliefs.
But if The Georgia Girls had done this, I I suppose we should support them. Besides, they are right in saying this. Especially since there was no connection between Japan and German. (Clearly there had to be a conspiracy, besides we are in-the-know and know better, right?).
Even if what they said was wrong, it isn't like it would hurt troop morale or undermine the war effort, right? And gee, it probably wouldn't lengthen the war or make it less likely that the war would go on longer and cause more deaths, right?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Oct 26, 2006 12:17:39 GMT -4
How did this thread turn into another Iraqi war thread?
Bill, free speech does apply overseas. You can't charge an American citizen for expressing themselves no matter where they do it. You can charge someone for aiding and abetting an enemy of the US, however. What the Dixie Chicks said was free speech, not aiding and abetting the enemy. It was stupid, true, but not in my opinion treasonous.
I generally agree that if the news media hadn't been so eager to turn Iraq into another Vietnam that the war would be over now, but basically charging an entire profession with treason is something the public wouldn't stand for.
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Post by echnaton on Oct 26, 2006 14:52:25 GMT -4
What do you mean? Whatever I say what? I mean that I find little pleasure in discussions with people that are so strident. Those that exhibit flexibility and a willingness to examine ideas are far more interesting.
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Post by Data Cable on Oct 26, 2006 17:27:41 GMT -4
On the other hand having the equivalent of three cheerleaders right from the heart of Bush's homeland come out, go to another country (apparently so they can be safe to say what they feel) and cheer Al Qaeda on, is another story. "Cheer Al Queda on..." Please, by all means, quote for us an example of the Dixie Chicks (or members thereof) "Cheering Al Queda on."
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Post by Data Cable on Oct 26, 2006 17:40:29 GMT -4
During World War II, there were a lot of people who did not understand why the United States was going to war with Germany when it was japan that had attacked us. It might have had something to do with the fact that Germany declared war on the US on Dec. 11, '41. False dilemma. Disagreeing with the policies and/or actions of ones own government does not constitute agreement with, much less support of, the policies and/or actions of an enemy state.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 26, 2006 20:01:13 GMT -4
Neandertal cranial capacity was "on average" larger than ours. They were, however, deeply Conservative.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 23:07:14 GMT -4
How did this thread turn into another Iraqi war thread? Bill, free speech does apply overseas. You can't charge an American citizen for expressing themselves no matter where they do it. I don't know. It seemed there were americans expressing their support for the Taliban who were rounded up in Afghanistan. If I dig around I might find some americans who were voicing support for an enemy of the United States in Central America at one time or another and we were powerless here when they were arrested.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 23:08:09 GMT -4
Neandertal cranial capacity was "on average" larger than ours. They were, however, deeply Conservative. ;D yeah, man! Good one. ;D
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 23:11:28 GMT -4
During World War II, there were a lot of people who did not understand why the United States was going to war with Germany when it was japan that had attacked us. It might have had something to do with the fact that Germany declared war on the US on Dec. 11, '41. False dilemma. Disagreeing with the policies and/or actions of ones own government does not constitute agreement with, much less support of, the policies and/or actions of an enemy state. "All bets are off" so to speak in wartime. FDR had often said that an overall common good surpasses individual rights in wartime. And remember, he was a Democrat. Sorry, I still think you guys are off-track. Protesting a war is fine. Not overseas. Remember, that is what I am saying. Don't put words in my mouth.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Oct 26, 2006 23:38:16 GMT -4
I suspect it has somehow become chic to protest war in the post-Vietnam era regardless of your forethought or any experiences or credentials or idea how things could be done differently.
People forget that the Vietnam war lasted decades, was our most costly war and took a much bigger toll.
Maybe The Dixie Chicks were "in the moment" and were giving a respectful nod to the music legends of the 60's.
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