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Post by twinstead on Feb 9, 2007 13:23:31 GMT -4
I never heard WWII called an "inter-imperialist war" in the Netherlands. In fact, the Dutch seemed quite grateful that the US had fought hard to liberate the country. As a general rule they (the Dutch) weren't very happy under Nazi rule. Well, obviously The Netherlands has a puppet government controlled by the Evil Red, White, and Blue Empire
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 9, 2007 13:37:00 GMT -4
Actually, the colors on the Dutch flag are red, white, and blue. Hmmm, are they betraying their secret masters?
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Feb 9, 2007 16:19:33 GMT -4
I don't think the New York Times memo is credible (at least credible enough) to form an iron-bound case that President Bush wanted to deceive the American people. Do you have any basis for doubting the authenticity of the memo? Or do you suspect it’s a fake because it contradicts your faith in Bush? That’s Rocky/David logic,
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 9, 2007 16:22:23 GMT -4
I suspect the New York Times is politically motivated to give more credibility to memos attacking the Bush Administration than such memos may deserve, much like CBS and the forged Bush Air National Guard memos.
Edit: I am speaking with little knowledge on the subject - I haven't researched the memo in any detail as of yet. The reckless idiocy of such a plan is also a strike against it's authenticiy, in my view. Mr. Bush is not a fool, whatever his critics may think.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Feb 9, 2007 19:45:53 GMT -4
Jason wrote: “We don't know if the war was unavoidable. President Bush gave Saddam 48 hours to leave the country with his sons to avoid war, but Saddam didn't take him up on his offer. No one can positively say that we would have invaded had Saddam packed it up and left.”That was an offer unlikely to have been accepted. There wasn’t sufficient evidence that Saddam was an “imminent threat” his refusing to go into exile is not a reasonable justification for war. “Joseph Wilson was a Bush critic long before his trip to Niger…”Citation, please. “…(which assignment he received because of his political connections, not because he was very well suited to the mission at hand).” What kind of political connections did this Bush critic of long standing have to get him appointed by Bush's people? Was it perhaps to Bush Sr. who nominated him ambassador to Gabon? He spent over 20 years in foreign service mostly in Africa including Niger but also in Iraq during which time he won several foreign service awards. He was The National Security Council’s Senior Director for African Affairs under Clinton. Are you really sure “he wasn’t very well suited to the mission at hand”? Perhaps you read too much Ann Coulter www.cpsag.com/our_team/wilson.html “As far as I konw the British government still maintains that the intelligence President Bush quoted in his State of the Union address that Iraq was attempting to purchase uranium in Africa was accurate.”As I would expect them to do either way. Blair and his party are getting a lot of heat over the Iraq fiasco too. Admitting it was wrong would only make things worse. “I suspect the New York Times is politically motivated to give more credibility to memos attacking the Bush Administration than such memos may deserve, much like CBS and the forged Bush Air National Guard memos.”By the same logic I could say that because Nixon and Agnew were unscrupulous liars and several contemporary Republicans are too that its more likely that GWB is too. The Times knew about the illegal wiretaping before the election but "sat" on the story at the administration's request. Unlike the Bush ANG memos no one questioned its authenticity. The memo was also accepted as authentic by the Guardian (one of Britain's most respected newspapers) London's Channel 4 TV station and interestingly enough by the founding partner of the law firm MS. Blair is a partner at. I imagine if there was any evidence it was fake the aforementioned Ms. Coulter would be frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog not to mention other conservative pundits. Neither the White House nor 10 Downing Street challenged its authenticity; rather they seemed to confirm it. From the article: (The link from my earlier post didn't work very well try this one tinyurl.com/38twr5 ) So that’s direct confirmation from anonymous 2 people from Blair’s camp and indirect confirmation from someone in Bush’s. “The reckless idiocy of such a plan is also a strike against it's authenticiy, in my view. Mr. Bush is not a fool, whatever his critics may think.”We’ll have to agree to disagree on Bush’s wisdom he always struck me as a complete idiot when he spoke “off the cuff” but then again I’m partisan* , he could well have been ‘brainstorming'. Len * I don't however think that his dad, Rummy, Cheney and Rice are stupid much as I disagree with their politics I even voted for Guliani once.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Feb 9, 2007 19:59:39 GMT -4
Actually, the colors on the Dutch flag are red, white, and blue. Hmmm, are they betraying their secret masters? Yes of course Just like the French!!! And Brits, Aussies, and Kiwis,! Actually I wouldn't be surprised if a CTist could be convinced to buy such a theory!
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Feb 9, 2007 20:18:29 GMT -4
Actually, the colors on the Dutch flag are red, white, and blue. Hmmm, are they betraying their secret masters? Yes of course Just like the French!!! And Brits, Aussies, and Kiwis,! Actually I wouldn't be surprised if a CTist could be convinced to buy such a theory! I dunno - I think there's a conspiracy theory just in the fact of those colors somewhere. Can't make any less sense than "flag waving" or "faster than freefall" stuff.
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Post by gwiz on Feb 10, 2007 7:21:23 GMT -4
Actually, the colors on the Dutch flag are red, white, and blue. Hmmm, are they betraying their secret masters? Yes of course Just like the French!!! And Brits, Aussies, and Kiwis,! Actually I wouldn't be surprised if a CTist could be convinced to buy such a theory! Don't forget the Russians.
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rocky
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Post by rocky on Feb 10, 2007 17:54:26 GMT -4
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Post by rocky on Feb 10, 2007 18:12:31 GMT -4
It sounds like you base all of your opinions on the official American version of everything. Do you know the story of the Philippines? www.thirdworldtraveler.com/American_Empire/US_Imperialism_LongHx_PA.htmlBackin the eighties I read this book. www.amazon.com/Diet-Small-Planet-20th-Anniversary/dp/0345321200It said that the American fruit companies Dole and Del Monte owned almost all of the pineapple plantations in the Philippines. It said that the land used to belong to Philippinos but after the conquest the land was given to American companies. I talked to some Philippinos here in Madrid. They told me the whole story is true. During world war two the US was fighting the Japanese in the Philippines to keep control of it's colony--the Japanese were trying to steal our colony from us. The same is true of Vietnam. It was a French colony and the Japanese wanted to steal it from the French so they could exploit it instead of the French. The people in those countries didn't see Americans and the French as the "Good guys" and the Japanese as the "Bad guys". They saw them all as the bad guys and they hoped they would kill each other. Just focusing on the Netherlands is simplistic.
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Post by echnaton on Feb 10, 2007 18:31:16 GMT -4
It sounds like you base all of your opinions on the official American version of everything.
You talk about this “official American version” as if it exists. Unfortunately for your argument, there is no such thing. History books are written by a individuals who are not censored into writing one version of events. Anyone can publish anything, and pretty much they do. Just because some sources don’t follow your political agenda doesn’t make the anything official.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 10, 2007 21:00:53 GMT -4
[I talked to some Philippinos here in Madrid. They told me the whole story is true. So? Seriously, David, I don't get it. Why are you taking their word for it? Were they there? You are talking about events that, in some cases, took place more than a hundred years ago. Why would you assume some random guy on the street knows more about history in the Philippines than in America? Oh, and I'm not chasing down most of your links, as I told you before. I note that you include Lies My Teacher Told Me, however, which I have read. Yes. There are inaccuracies, there are speculations not labelled as such, and--if you know what you're looking for--there is obvious bias. I got rid of my copy because it was so clearly trying to make a point without knowing a lot of what was being talked about. For example, the author mentions at some point the Plague, saying something about it only being in the 14th Century. (I think. I hope, anyway, as that's when the most famous outbreak was.) However, one of the other extremely famous outbreaks in it was in 1665, well after the events he's using the Plague to make a point about, and that outbreak killed an enormous number of people. In fact, the Black Death only stopped hitting London on a regular basis after the Great Fire, a fact the author did not seem to know. If that's the height of scholarship to you, it explains much.
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rocky
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Post by rocky on Feb 11, 2007 12:29:50 GMT -4
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Post by rocky on Feb 11, 2007 12:36:12 GMT -4
I don't recall ever seeing any info like what those links say in any library or bookstore in the US. I used to look for it too. I haven't been back since 95 so I don't know what it's like now. The press certainly didn't tell us what was really going on.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 11, 2007 17:09:40 GMT -4
David, what part of "I'm not chasing down your links" did you fail to understand in my last post? Also, you've completely left out the meat of my argument. That's intellectually dishonest of you. You also failed to answer the questions I asked in the section you did quote.
And if you couldn't find anything that said how nasty the US government was, you clearly weren't looking terribly hard. The Howard Zinn you cite above was first published in 1980. As I've said before, if it's published by a US publishing house, it's sold in the US. If you couldn't find it, again, you weren't looking terribly hard.
In fact, I doubt you were looking at all.
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