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Post by 3onthetree on Feb 21, 2007 7:31:17 GMT -4
Can we forget all this crap, all we need is one serial controlled piece of an airplane that corresponds to the actual listed flight. Is that so hard, even a dumb ass FBI agent can bend over and pick up a piece of plane.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Feb 21, 2007 9:22:02 GMT -4
There is no indication what the plane parts were nor has it been confirmed that what looked like remains were indeed remains. In the PM article the coroner said all human remains were found close to the crash site. As I indicated all the debris was found beyond the flight path how is that consistant with a shoot down?
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Feb 21, 2007 9:48:01 GMT -4
At least one report notes the engine was found 2,000 yards away, which is over a mile... A sector of one engine weighing one ton was found 2,000 yards away. This was the single heaviest piece recovered from the crash..news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article173206.eceAnother only describes it as "a considerable distance" away.... According to PM Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards." Numerous crash analysts contacted by PM concur. www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=7 John Carlin the author of the article in the Independant didn’t cite his source and seems only to have visited the area almost a year after the crash, This article from a CT site claims that “an engine core was separated from the main impact crater by about 2000 feet” but the only cited source is another page on the same site. The 2nd page cites two sources 911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/flight93/index.html 1) State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be drained, he said. Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a considerable distance from the crash site." "It appears to be the whole engine," he added. 2) The 2nd is the Carlin article. Thus 911 Research is contradicting its only source as to the distance several references are made to the part being “half a mile” away which is more consistent with “about 2000 feet” that “2000 yards”. Interestingly the page includes a bit of a topographic map which seems to back Popular Mechanic’s contention that the engine or engine part was found downhill from the main crash site [ 911research.wtc7.net/planes/attack/docs/topo_crash_f93.png (another map on the page indicates the part was found to the SSW i.e. down the hill] Nothing in this article supports the idea the engine part was found 2000 yards away but decribes the part as a part not a whole engine. “The heaviest piece found was a part of an engine fan weighing about 1,000 pounds, [FBI agent Bill] Crowley said” I checked 3 different archived versions including the 1st and last and they’re the same web.archive.org/web/20011210151212/http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/News/970609/index.html - web.archive.org/web/20031204003250/http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/News/970609/index.html The only other accounts of the distance the engine or engine part were found from the wreckage I found indicated it was about 1800 feet. According to Christopher Bollyn (who is a neo-Fascist colleague of M.C. Piper BTW) “Jim Svonavec, whose company worked at the site and provided excavation equipment, told AFP that the recovery of the engine “at least 1,800 feet into the woods,” was done solely by FBI agents using his equipment.” www.americanfreepress.net/html/9-11_mysteries.html For the first two or three days, Marshall walked the surrounding countryside looking for airplane parts. "I found a lot of parts," said Marshall, who was awarded a 2000 Law Enforcement Agency Directors award for identifying a man nearly four years after he was found murdered. "The biggest part I found was one of the plane's engines. It was about 600 yards from the crash site itself. I think they took it out with a winch on a bulldozer." Marshall, who served four years in the Air Force, said he found many parts that he couldn't specifically identify. web.archive.org/web/20020607193748/http:/www.sharon-herald.com/localnews/recentnews/0110/ln100801c.html Carlin pretty obviously transposed feet into yards, the part was found 300 – 600 yards or 900 – 1800 feet downhill in the direction of travel from the crash site. Nothing at all inconsistent about that.
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Post by Ranb on Feb 21, 2007 11:18:53 GMT -4
Can we forget all this crap, all we need is one serial controlled piece of an airplane that corresponds to the actual listed flight. Is that so hard, even a dumb ass FBI agent can bend over and pick up a piece of plane. What parts have serial numbers? I'm sure you can tell us all. If a person knows (almost everyone, including those who ID'ed body parts) that it was Flight 93 that crashed, why would they care about serial numbers? If the pictures of serial numbered parts become available, will you say they are genuine? If not, why demand them? Ranb
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Feb 21, 2007 13:01:53 GMT -4
Turbonuim said previously only one suspect witness saw flight 93 crash this is categorically false* as even CT sites attest. Perhaps he can tell us why this witness shouldn’t be trusted (even though he/she is far from being the only one). 911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flight93witnesses.html911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/eyewitness.html www.flight93crash.com/flight93_eyewitness.html Though there are, as we would expect, some discrepancies between the various accounts they are basically the same, the plane flew erratically before suddenly pitching of to the side and plunging to the ground. None said the plane appeared to damaged or had smoke coming out of it. A few of them said the plane dove at about 90 degrees or “straight down”. This seems to be contradicted by the FDR data. As to why this discrepancy exists is hard to say. Depending on the witness’s position a 40 – 50 degree plunge could appear more like 90, it also might possible the FDR was wrong or the data misinterpreted (hopefully some of the pilots on this board will comment on this). These accounts do seem to rule the theories the plane was shot down or didn’t crash. One wonders if no plane at all crashed why the faked FDR wouldn’t match the statements of the planted witnesses. The same goes for the shot down theory in which case the witnesses were plants as well. The author of the Pilots for Truth page claims the hole isn’t consistent with a 40 degree crash, perhaps he would be willing to tell us what his experience/credentials are regarding crash investigations or what evidence he has to back up this claim. A 40 degree impact would however better explain the dispersal of wreckage beyond the crash site. * As is so much of what he tells us. His perseverance (obstinace ?) is impressive though despite being repeatedly shown the assumptions upon which his conclusions are based are wrong he continues to insist he's right.
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Post by echnaton on Feb 21, 2007 13:20:41 GMT -4
Can we forget all this crap, all we need is one serial controlled piece of an airplane that corresponds to the actual listed flight. Is that so hard, even a dumb ass FBI agent can bend over and pick up a piece of plane. Every piece of remains of the dead were "serial numbered" through their DNA. ( That is identifiable to their origin.) Why is that so different than parts of an airplane?
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Post by turbonium on Feb 25, 2007 4:17:33 GMT -4
Turbonuim said previously only one suspect witness saw flight 93 crash this is categorically false* as even CT sites attest. Perhaps he can tell us why this witness shouldn’t be trusted (even though he/she is far from being the only one). * As is so much of what he tells us. His perseverance (obstinace ?) is impressive though despite being repeatedly shown the assumptions upon which his conclusions are based are wrong he continues to insist he's right. More nonsense from lenbrazil. I said that only one witness claimed to have seen the actual plane crash. That is, see it actually hit the ground. Then he posts links to the witnesses and claims several of these witnesses said they saw the actual plane crash. OK, then - let's go over each and every one of these accounts, from all three sources posted. Repeated accounts have been left out, other than those that include further relevant details.... SOURCE ONE"I heard like a boom and the engine sounded funny," she told the Daily News. "I heard two more booms - and then I did not hear anything."
What does Temyer think she heard? "I think the plane was shot down,"First account - did not see plane crash, but it's interesting that the witness does believe the plane was shot down. "It came in low over the trees and started wobbling," said Tim Thornsberg, a resident of Somerset County, who was working near an old strip mine when he saw the plane.
"Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees. It was just unreal to see something like that."Second account - did not see the plane crash. Eric Peterson, 28, was working in his shop in the Somerset County village of Lambertsville yesterday morning when he heard a plane, looked up and saw one fly over unusually low.
The plane continued on beyond a nearby hill, then dropped out of sight behind a tree line. As it did so, Peterson said it seemed to be turning end-over-end.
Then Peterson said he saw a fireball, heard an explosion and saw a mushroom cloud of smoke rise into the sky.Third account - did not see the plane crash. “I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair.Fourth account - saw plane crash "into the nearby trees". The plane purportedly crashed into a cleared area of ground, not into a bunch of trees. This witness either saw something different than the official crash, or saw it from a distance and assumed it crashed into nearby trees. Bottom line - did not see the "official" plane crash. Eric Peterson of Lambertsville looked up when he heard the plane. "It was low enough, I thought you could probably count the rivets," Peterson said. "You could see more of the roof of the plane than you could the belly. It was on its side."
"There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud."Fifth account - did not see the plane crash. Saw flames. “Normally I wouldn’t look up, but I just heard on the news that all the planes were grounded and thought this was probably the last one I would see for a while, so I looked up,” she said. “I didn’t see the plane but I heard the plane’s engine. Then I heard a loud thump that echoed off the hills and then I heard the plane’s engine. I heard two more loud thumps and didn’t hear the plane’s engine anymore after that.”Sixth account - did not even see the plane itself, let alone see it crash. "We didn't hear that plane coming until it was right on top of us," she said. "Then there was a roar." She said the plane appeared to be gliding into the ground. "All at once it just stopped. There was no engine noise, nothing. Someone hollered, Oh my God!' and then there was a real loud thud."Seventh account - did not see the plane crash. Heard a loud thud. Shortly after 10 a.m., workers on farms and scrap yards in Somerset County looked up to see an airliner flying low and erratic at an estimated 450 mph.Eighth account(s) - did not see the plane crash. Bob Blair of Stoystown was driving a coal truck on state Route 30 when he saw the jet plummet "straight down." Barn windowpanes for half a mile around shattered as the jet dived into a reclaimed strip mine and exploded at 10:10 a. m.Ninth account - did not see the plane crash. Saw it plummetting down, not crash. A witness told WTAE-TV's Paul Van Osdol that she saw the plane overhead. It made a high-pitched, screeching sound. The plane then made a sharp, 90-degree downward turn and crashed.Tenth account - unnamed source which only reports seeing the plane flying overhead. The 90 degree turn and crash are not claimed to have been seen. Bob Blair was completing a routine drive to Shade Creek just after 10 a.m. Tuesday, when he saw a huge silver plane fly past him just above the treetops and crash into the woods along Lambertsville Road. Blair, of Stoystown, a driver with Jim Barron Trucking of Somerset, was traveling in a coal truck along with Doug Miller of Somerset, when they saw the plane spiraling to the ground and then explode on the outskirts of Lambertsville. “I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair.Eleventh account - same as fourth account, which reported the plane crashing into "nearby trees". Another witness, Michael Merringer, said he was out on a mountain bike ride with his wife, Amy, about two miles from the crash site.
"(I) heard the engine gun two different times," he said. "(I) heard a loud bang and the windows of the houses all around rattled."Twelfth account - did not see the plane, nor see the plane crash. Larry Williams, a former state police trooper who is now a private investigator, was golfing on the 17th green at Oakbrook Golf Course about eight miles away when he heard the engines “roar real loud and shut off.”Thirteenth account - same as others that only heard plane. "We got the call about 9:58 this morning from a male passenger stating that he was locked in the bathroom of United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to San Francisco, and they were being hijacked," said Glenn Cramer, a 911 supervisor.
"We confirmed that with him several times and we asked him to repeat what he said. He was very distraught. He said he believed the plane was going down. He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where.
"And then we lost contact with him."Fourteenth account - second hand report of someone on plane. However, it's another account most interesting for something else - an explosion and white smoke coming from plane before it crashed, which lends support to a shoot-down. Meanwhile, investigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby Indian Lake (2.5 miles from main crash site), where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes."
"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said. Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane.Fifteenth account(s) - still more support for a shoot-down, not for seeing the plane crash. Some witnesses reported that the plane was flying upside down for a time before the crash; others said they heard up to three loud booms before the jetliner went down.Sixteenth account(s) - even more support for a shoot-down, not for seeing the plane crash. "There was no way anything was left," Pluta added. "There was just charred pieces of metal and a big hole. The plane didn't slide into the crash. It went straight into the ground. Wings out. Nose down."Seventeenth account - not claimed to have actually witnessed the crash. Bits of metal were thrown against a tree line like shrapnel, said state police spokesman Trooper Thomas Spallone of Troop A in Greensburg.
"Once it hit, everything just disintegrated," he said. "There are just shreds of metal. The longest piece I saw was 2 feet long."Eighteenth account - like the previous account, a report on the aftermath, not of seeing the actual crash. www.flight93crash.com/flight93_eyewitness.htmlSOURCE TWO"When it decided to drop, it dropped all of a sudden, like a stone," said Tom Fritz, 63. Fritz was sitting on his porch on Lambertsville Road, about a quarter mile from the crash site, when he heard a sound that "wasn't quite right" and looked up in the sky. First account - did not see the plane crash. But again, it's interesting to note that the sound he heard made him look up to the sky.A few miles north of Lambertsville, yard man Terry Butler, 40, was toiling away at Stoystown Auto Wreckers...It dropped out of the clouds," too low for a commercial flight, Butler said. The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down."Second account - did not see the plane crash. But press the mayor for details, and he will add something surprising. "I know of two people -- I will not mention names -- that heard a missile," Stuhl said. "They both live very close, within a couple of hundred yards. . .This one fellow's served in Vietnam and he says he's heard them, and he heard one that day." The mayor adds that based on what he knows about that morning, military F-16 fighter jets were "very, very close."Third account(s) - two more accounts that support the shoot-down, not seeing the plane crash. Laura Temyer and an unnamed male witness both describe two loud bangs before the crash. Laura Temyer, who lives several miles north of the crash site in Hooversville, was hanging some clothes outside that morning when she heard an airplane pass overhead. That struck her as unusual since she'd just heard on TV that all flights were grounded.
"I heard like a boom and the engine sounded funny," she told the Daily News. "I heard two more booms -- and then I did not hear anything."
What does Temyer think she heard? "I think the plane was shot down," insists Temyer, who said she has twice told her story to the FBI. What's more, she insists that people she knows in state law enforcement have told her the same thing, that the plane was shot down and that decompression sucked objects from the aircraft, explaining why there was a wide debris field. Fourth account - from same report about Temyer as in the first link, but includes further supporting details - another witness who also heard the two loud bangs, and her insistence that she knows state law enforcement officials who told her the same thing. One eyewitness to the Pennsylvania crash, Linda Shepley, told television station KDKA in Pittsburgh that she heard a loud bang and saw the plane bank to the side before crashingFifth account - yet another account that supports a shoot-down, but also claims in the third source to be a witness to the crash (more on this to follow). Sixth account - same as fourteenth account from previous link, with the added note that "Other reports since identified the passenger as Edward Felt." "It was mainly mail, bits of in-flight magazine and scraps of seat cloth," Tom [Spinelli] said. "The authorities say it was blown here by the wind." But there was only a 10mph breeze and you were a mile and a half away? Tom raised his eyebrows, rolled his eyes and said: "Yeah, that's what they reckon."Seventh account - again more support for a shoot-down, not for seeing a plane crash. 911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flight93witnesses.htmlSOURCE THREETerry Butler, at Stoystown: he sees the plane come out of the clouds, low to the ground. "It was moving like you wouldn't believe. Next thing I knew it makes a heck of a sharp, right-hand turn." It banks to the right and appears to be trying to climb to clear one of the ridges, but it continues to turn to the right and then veers behind a ridge. About a second later it crashes.Charles Sturtz, a half mile from the crash site: The plane is heading southeast and has its engines running. No smoke can be seen. "It was really roaring, you know. Like it was trying to go someplace, I guess." Michael Merringer, two miles from the crash site: "I heard the engine gun two different times and then I heard a loud bang..." Tim Lensbouer, 300 yards away: "I heard it for 10 or 15 seconds and it sounded like it was going full bore."Rob Kimmel, several miles from the crash site: He sees it fly overhead, banking hard to the right. It is 200 feet or less off the ground as it crests a hill to the southeast. "I saw the top of the plane, not the bottom."Eric Peterson of Lambertsville: He sees a plane flying overhead unusually low. The plane seemed to be turning end-over-end as it dropped out of sight behind a tree line. Bob Blair of Stoystown: He sees the plane spiraling and flying upside down before crashing. Its not much higher than the treetops.Kelly Leverknight in Stony Creek Township of Shanksville: "There was no smoke, it just went straight down. I saw the belly of the plane." It sounds like it is flying low, and its heading east.Tim Thornsberg, working in a nearby strip mine: "It came in low over the trees and started wobbling. Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees." Nine accounts - none of which saw the plane crash. Lee Purbaugh, 300 yards away: "There was an incredibly loud rumbling sound and there it was, right there, right above my head – maybe 50 feet up... I saw it rock from side to side then, suddenly, it dipped and dived, nose first, with a huge explosion, into the ground. I knew immediately that no one could possibly have survived."Linda Shepley: She hears a loud bang and sees the plane bank to the side. [ ABC News, 9/11/01] She sees the plane wobbling right and left, at a low altitude of roughly 2,500 feet, when suddenly the right wing dips straight down, and the plane plunges into the earth. She says had an unobstructed view of Flight 93's final two minutes.Above two accounts - these are the only witnesses who claim to have seen the plane actually crash. Shepley's account partly noted earlier in source two. I'll address these two accounts next. 911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/eyewitness.htmlLee Purbaugh, 32, was the only person to see the last seconds of Flight 93 as it came down on former strip-mining land at precisely 10.06am - and he also saw the white jet.
He was working at the Rollock Inc. scrapyard on a ridge overlooking the point of impact, less than half a mile away. "I heard this real loud noise coming over my head," he told the Daily Mirror. "I looked up and it was Flight 93, barely 50ft above me. It was coming down in a 45 degree and rocking from side to side. Then the nose suddenly dipped and it just crashed into the ground. There was this big fireball and then a huge cloud of smoke."
But did he see another plane? "Yes, there was another plane," Lee said. "I didn't get a good look but it was white and it circled the area about twice and then it flew off over the horizon."web.archive.org/web/20021010093337/http:/www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12192317&method=full&siteid=50143Lee Purbaugh was the person I was referring to earlier, as the above article noted, as ..the only person to see the last seconds of Flight 93 as it came down on former strip-mining land. I was not familiar with Shepley's claim. Both Purbaugh and Shepley, while claiming to have seen the actual plane crash, also contradict the official story with other details. Purbaugh said he saw another plane, white in color, circle the area twice before flying away. Shepley said she heard a loud bang before seeing the plane pitch downward and crash. Both of these accounts actually lend further credence to a shoot-down. Shepley claims to have seen the actual crash. As noted earlier in source three.... She says had an unobstructed view of Flight 93's final two minutes. But it's clearly impossible for her to have seen the actual impact, after reading her own account below... My name is Linda Shepley and I live near Stoystown. We live up high and we can see over the ridge. We live about 4 miles from the crash site. On Sept.11 about 10:AM I was hanging the laundry on the clothes line when the plane came over . It was flying lower than normal and it was flying on a flight path that I hadn't seen before. It's wings tilted back and fourth . I looked over my shoulder to see it comming over. I watched it not knowing that it was hijacked thinking that maybe something was wrong with it, or because of the airports closing it may be looking for an airport . As it was going out the ridge it was loosing altitude. It's right wing dipped to the right and it looked like it was headed south. No sooner did it turn when it nose dived into the ground. I saw the flames and the mushroom cloud of smoke rise up above the trees. www.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/1032A visit to the Shepley residence would certainly verify if the actual crash site can be observed from this location. But it seems highly unlikely to me. For one thing, she says she "saw the flames and the mushroom cloud of smoke rise up above the trees." She does not say she saw flames and smoke rise up from the ground, or from the plane, after impacting the ground. An "unobstructed view " of the plane crash would not only have a view of the subsequent fire and smoke when it rose "up above the trees." She would have said she saw the flames and smoke rise up from the aircraft's impact point - the ground. It's obvious that she didn't see the actual plane crash into the ground. Though there are, as we would expect, some discrepancies between the various accounts they are basically the same, the plane flew erratically before suddenly pitching of to the side and plunging to the ground. Let's see - what was I accused of? Oh, right, it was this - "..the assumptions upon which his conclusions are based are wrong." Upon review of every witness account in the three sources, it's quite clear who has made the false assumptions to reach baseless conclusions. None said the plane appeared to damaged or had smoke coming out of it. You didn't even read your own sources, apparently..... "He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane."This seems to be contradicted by the FDR data. As to why this discrepancy exists is hard to say. Depending on the witness’s position a 40 – 50 degree plunge could appear more like 90, it also might possible the FDR was wrong or the data misinterpreted The FDR was most unlikely to have been misinterpreted. The witness accounts regarding flight trajectory vary and are inconsistent, to say the least. These accounts do seem to rule the theories the plane was shot down.... No, they don't. THE unmarked military-style jet swooped down at high speed through the valley, twice circled the smouldering black scar where Flight 93 had careered into the ground just seconds earlier and then hurtled off over the horizon.
Susan Mcelwain, 51, who lives two miles from the site, knows what she saw - the white plane rocketed directly over her head.
"It came right over me, I reckon just 40 or 50ft above my mini-van," she recalled. "It was so low I ducked instinctively. It was travelling real fast, but hardly made any sound.
"Then it disappeared behind some trees. A few seconds later I heard this great explosion and saw this fireball rise up over the trees, so I figured the jet had crashed. The ground really shook. So I dialled 911 and told them what happened.
"I'd heard nothing about the other attacks and it was only when I got home and saw the TV that I realised it wasn't the white jet, but Flight 93.
I didn't think much more about it until the authorities started to say there had been no other plane. The plane I saw was heading right to the point where Flight 93 crashed and must have been there at the very moment it came down.
"There's no way I imagined this plane - it was so low it was virtually on top of me. It was white with no markings but it was definitely military, it just had that look.
"It had two rear engines, a big fin on the back like a spoiler on the back of a car and with two upright fins at the side. I haven't found one like it on the internet. It definitely wasn't one of those executive jets. The FBI came and talked to me and said there was no plane around.
"Then they changed their story and tried to say it was a plane taking pictures of the crash 3,000ft up.
"But I saw it and it was there before the crash and it was 40ft above my head. They did not want my story - nobody here did."
Tom Spinelli, 28, was working at India Lake Marina, a mile and a half away. "I saw the white plane," he said.
"It was flying around all over the place like it was looking for something. I saw it before and after the crash."web.archive.org/web/20021010093337/http:/www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12192317&method=full&siteid=50143Video link with three more witnesses who saw a second plane... www.youtube.com/watch?v=01jpvKs2_S4Another witness.. Robert Blair, 41, also of Stoystown, was driving his coal-hauling route when he saw the plane crash a few miles away. He noticed the second plane because he had heard on his truck radio earlier that the FAA had grounded all aircraft, and he said it was flying east -- the same direction as Flight 93. He said the FBI asked him whether it looked like a military plane, but Blair remembered only that it was "a big jet flying low."www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=article&articleid=A28603-2001Sep14Video link to another witness.. www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LczyHz_I8IFour witnesses on video. Four more witnesses - Lee Purbaugh, Robert Blair, Tom Spinelli, Susan Mcelwain - mentioned above. At least eight more named witnesses - Jim Brandt, Dennis Decker, and six others. At least sixteen people are on record, witnessing a second plane at the time of the crash. Many witnesses heard and/or saw explosions in the air - before the crash. Many witnesses saw debris up to eight miles away. It's ludicrous to claim the witness accounts "seem to rule the theories the plane was shot down..." The author of the Pilots for Truth page claims the hole isn’t consistent with a 40 degree crash, And that surprises you? Who would claim the hole is consistent with a 40 degree crash?? perhaps he would be willing to tell us what his experience/credentials are regarding crash investigations or what evidence he has to back up this claim. The Flt.93 article, not currently credited, may also be the result of research involving more than one member. This link is to a page listing several members and their credentials... www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html While there are certain aspects of the topic that require expertise, such as the analysis of FDR information, it doesn't require a lot more than common sense to see that the Shanksville hole wasn't created by an aircraft hitting the ground at a 40 degree angle. A 40 degree impact would however better explain the dispersal of wreckage beyond the crash site. It may explain some of the dispersal and/or condition of the debris better. It may also make it more difficult to explain some debris, if it was found in areas not consistent with such a flight trajectory at impact. But the first glaring problem with a 40 degree impact is that it is entirely inconsistent with the purported crash site hole. In no way is it possible for this hole to have been created by an object impacting the ground at 40 degrees.
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Post by nomuse on Feb 25, 2007 6:08:40 GMT -4
Wow. I actually have to applaud the cleverness displayed here. Those goal-posts are so narrow a camel couldn't get through them, either.
So.....airplane noses over, heads towards ground, is last seen a hundred feet up and falling fast. A millisecond later there is a loud sound and flame shoots into the air. Hey, sounds like the helicopter crash in a cheap action movie to me! Does make me wonder exactly what happened to the plane, though. Did it suddenly make the most spectacular maneuver ever committed out of sight of the public? Was there a convenient Grand Canyon for it to nose into while regaining attitude and control? Oh, maybe it was just a balloon all along, carefully decorated and deployed just for the benefit of the eye witnesses....
Hey, I didn't see the actual moment of my birth....but I'm willing to take it on trust that it happened.
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Post by turbonium on Feb 25, 2007 7:27:50 GMT -4
Wow. I actually have to applaud the cleverness displayed here. Those goal-posts are so narrow a camel couldn't get through them, either. So.....airplane noses over, heads towards ground, is last seen a hundred feet up and falling fast. A millisecond later there is a loud sound and flame shoots into the air. Hey, sounds like the helicopter crash in a cheap action movie to me! Does make me wonder exactly what happened to the plane, though. Did it suddenly make the most spectacular maneuver ever committed out of sight of the public? Was there a convenient Grand Canyon for it to nose into while regaining attitude and control? Oh, maybe it was just a balloon all along, carefully decorated and deployed just for the benefit of the eye witnesses.... Hey, I didn't see the actual moment of my birth....but I'm willing to take it on trust that it happened. And the white plane seen in the vicinity was a figment of everybody's imagination. Or it was actually there, carrying some Japanese tourists around on a sightseeing tour, featuring a fly-by of recent crash sites.
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Post by nomuse on Feb 25, 2007 7:38:28 GMT -4
Oh, of course....the white plane opened up a huge hatch and Flight 93 slipped inside! I saw that in a James Bond movie -- I should have remembered that!
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Post by turbonium on Feb 25, 2007 8:37:48 GMT -4
I can't vouch for the validity of that story, but it's immeasurably more believable than the official version. A considerable upgrade!
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 25, 2007 9:54:59 GMT -4
So your contention is that the tumbling, upside down boeing could miraculaously avoid the ground? Yeah Right!.
As to the white plane, it's called research.
There was such a jet in the vicinity--a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., an apparel company that markets Wrangler jeans and other brands. The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft."--not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on."
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rocky
Earth
BANNED
Posts: 212
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Post by rocky on Feb 25, 2007 11:53:49 GMT -4
I still haven't been able to find any pictures of body parts.
If you know where they are, please post them.
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Post by frenat on Feb 25, 2007 12:14:58 GMT -4
I still haven't been able to find any pictures of body parts. If you know where they are, please post them. Why? Wouldn't you then just say they could have been faked? That is your mantra isn't it? Well I say you are faked. I've never seen a picture of you and even if I did it could have been photoshopped. I can't believe somebody could be as willfully ignorant as you appear to be so you must be a fake.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Feb 25, 2007 12:24:09 GMT -4
And the white plane seen in the vicinity was a figment of everybody's imagination. Did any of the witnesses see the white plane shoot at Flight 93? Seeing the plane fly overhead and actually seeing it shoot down Flight 93 are two different things. It appears you have reached that conclusion without any evidence to support it. I hate when conspiracy theorists "connect the dots". Just because there may have been a second plane in the area does not mean it is responsible for the crash. If you are going to make claims like that I want to see supporting evidence. If you believe a Global Hawk crashed into the Pentagon prove it. If you believe there were demolition bombs in the WTC then prove it. Accusations are meaningless without proof.
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