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Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 13:30:27 GMT -4
doesn't mean he said he is God at all. He is saying that God created him before creating anything, I think it is like the Universal Mind idea.
I couldn't understand th eold english in the last versus.
Jesus said: I am the son of man, son of God, I have been given power,, many things like that that suggests separation between him and God.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 11, 2006 13:39:38 GMT -4
doesn't mean he said he is God at all. He is saying that God created him before creating anything, I think it is like the Universal Mind idea. That would be a valid reading if it weren't for the fact that I AM is the name that God gave to Moses. Jesus is identifying himself with Jehovah. The jews who were present understood it as a claim to godhood - that's why they decided to stone him on the spot. I guess it's time to put that LDS vision of the trinity that Dead Hoosiers asked for on the other thread up. I'll do that back on the FUD thread.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 11, 2006 13:41:50 GMT -4
Jason,
There's nothing wrong with my reasoning. The law shows man what perfection is and that he is unable to keep it (perfectly); God provided a way to spare man the resulting judgment of breaking the law.
None of these are examples of God granting the prayers of nonbelievers.
No, I was trying to demonstrate something. The sorcerors had power to perform miracles but that power did not come from God. He also demonstrated through Moses that His power was greater than their power. Concerning the priests of Baal, God demonstrates that He can completely block the source of that power.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 11, 2006 13:45:43 GMT -4
Well, that is why I labled them "possible instances".
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Post by echnaton on Jul 11, 2006 13:55:23 GMT -4
Sorry there echnaton. I appreciate your consideration.
But I do think that whether or not God answers prayers not properly addressed to him is of at least a little more importance than how many angles may dance on the head of a pin.
I also appreciate your since of proportion. It seems to me that each are about equally testable, therefore more a matter of faith. Although faith is certainly strengthen through discussions such as this one.
doesn't mean he said he is God at all. He is saying that God created him before creating anything, I think it is like the Universal Mind idea.
The Trinity is a little hard d to explain, beyond the basic three Persons in one God, and therefore dificult to understand for those that do not hold to Christian beliefs. In my experience, Moslems and Jews seem a bit bewildered by it. Moslems because of the intense focus on one God, and Jews because a similar focus and that their vision of the Messiah is much different from Jesus, who we hold as the Messiah. Nevertheless it is greatly appealing to many of us that do hold to the faith. For many it even defines our faith. Like many thing in religion, it means different things to different people.
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Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 16:20:21 GMT -4
Now that I have reread the verses, I see no problem in them. I guess it is were Jesus says, if I'll translate well from Arabic, I was there before Abraham was. Translation from the original language to other languages is very critical, so I wonder what the "flavour" of the english translation might look like to English speaking people. The Arabic word I remember was used in the Bible : "Inni Ka'en", The verb "Yakoon" is to be. Ka'en is the one who resulted from being. Jesus is saying he has been before Abraham has been. Indeed, many sects summarized in the Essenes site I gave to Kiwi believe Christ to be the reincarnation of Pythagorus and other Messiahs. Let me give you another example where translation has screwed it up for people. In Arabic, the word "Rabb" can mean God. However, the original meaning is related to something like "head of" or leader". We say "Rabb Ala'aila", which is the head of the family (father). We say "Rabb al-a'amal" which means the a buisnessman who is a leader. Christians always say "ya rabb"" = "Oh God" when they want to pray. This same word is written about Jesus almost always in the Bible in Arabic. They take it literally that it means God, without searching the original translation. But this is not our concern now. I am concerned if it is the demons who are answering good ppl's prayers ornot. We had a christian believer who came to preach in our school. She told us compassionate events and miracles that hapened to her . She had prayed for 17 yrs that her leg gets cured. The priest had a dream that there will be someone by the name so and so next time he preaches, and should pray for her . He asked about her, and she was there at the church. She was cured.(don't want to tell long details, but..) I asked her how does she explain it that many ppl have their prayers answered. She said she does believe that everyone praying to God, whatever his religion, if he prays faithfully, his prayers are going to be answered. Jesus has said this inthe Bible: whoever prays believing that he is going to be answered, will be answered. Al-Hallaj, the famous Sufi (hope you have heard about him), has a life story stunningly like Christ. He predicted his crucifixion. He was crucified then burnt, asking forgiveness for his enemies. He said things that seemed to be saying that he is God. The truth is that he was saying that the good traits in him got purified, so he looked in a way like God. That is why he was crucified, bcz he wasn't understood. please read : www.stpt.usf.edu/mustafa/Hallaj.htmwww.thelemicknights.org/ootmc/mansur/mansur.htmlwww.khamush.com/sufism/hallaj.htmlif this is a bad person, there is no one good in this world.
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Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 16:24:19 GMT -4
before I forget, I read a book about Al-Hallaj. I'll be happy to write about his wonderfull life, and the wonderfull miracles tha thappened to him, if you want to know more.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 11, 2006 16:59:44 GMT -4
This idea is one of the reasons your average atheist refers to God as "the invisible sky bully." If God punished Israel for not holding up their side of the bargain, but they were incapable of holding up their side of the bargin then God isn't behaving in a just fashion at all, is he? How can God justly punish someone for not doing something they can't do? There must be something wrong with your reasoning here.
I've been avoiding this thread for a bit since it got off track, but looking in I thought I'd answer this.
God rarely directly punished anyone. Yes, there are a few cases, mostly shortly after a new covenant had been created between God and Man, and in them there are examples in both New and Old Testaments (Sodom/Garmorah right after the coventant with Abraham, a number of punishments on the Israelites right after the Commandents were given, Anaias and Sephira in Acts are examples). The main "punishment" was the witholding of protection. If you look at the "punshmentments" predicted to the people if they were disobedient, they are things that would happen because they no longer received God's protect and help, not because God would bully them. He gave them a choice. Follow His way and receive His help and blessing and get that return, or reject Him and do things on their own and reap the rewards of that choice.
Compare this to a rich parent. They can tell their child that if they stay at home, be part of the family, keep out of trouble, study hard and try their best to get a good job and make a difference that their fees will be paid for, that they will be looked after, clothed, fed, given a large allowance and protected, but if they don't do so, if they drop out, run away, turn their back on their family and get into crime, that they are on their own, and when they get jailed they will just have to put up with it because they won't be being bailed out. Can you then call the parent a bully when the child goes off the rails, runa away and starts shoplifting, then is arrested and jailed?
Of course not, and when you read the stories of the Old Testament (Torah) you see the same picture. Whenever the Israelites went off on their own way, God let them deal with the consequences. He removed the protection on them, stopped His blessings and help. That meant that they would come under attack from their neighbours, the rains didn't come and life was hard, exactly how it would always have been without God's help. Only when they were obedient did they get that help back, at which time He once more held back their enemies and brought to them the good rains and other things they needed, but wouldn't have normally had without His intervention.
In the same way today, when we are obedient to God, He will give us the blessings and help we need through each day, but if we demand to do things our way and don't follow, He lets us do that, and lets us reap that reward instead of His blessing, and why shouldn't He? Why should He have to protect and bless us when we turn our back on Him? Just in the same way that the rich Parent no longer has the responability to proctect and support a child that has left home and turned their back on their family.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 11, 2006 17:13:45 GMT -4
Good answer Phantom Wolf. I think I agree with your opinion here. I'm not sure if that's what Dead Hoosiers had in mind when she talked about punishments though.
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Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 17:21:17 GMT -4
Not punishment, but the killings of the Cana'anites and the other gentiles.
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Post by yodaluver28 on Aug 14, 2006 18:00:15 GMT -4
This is not entirely true. Hinduism is a very complex religion since there are so many differnet forms and practices but most Hindus believe in one true spirit at the center of the universe, which they call Brahman. The many various "Gods" worshiped are simply Earthy manifestations of Brahman. For example, when they worship the Sun God, they are worshipping Brahman's creation of the sun. Much like the Jews knew the earthly presence of Yahweh among them as The Shekinah. Although unlike most Monotheists, Hindus do not perceive the ultimate spirit as parent-like or even remotely anthropomorphic. It is more of an all-encompassing force of nature, which is sometimes called "The Universal Soul". The is considered so permanent that even heaven and hell themselves are thought to rejoin the spirit when they inevitably die away.
A Hindu might believe that Yahweh and Allah are manifestations of Brahman too.
This is a sticky one, Allah is not completely the same as the God of Abraham, Moses, or Jesus. Yet, he is also not completely something else either. He's a tapestry of both Muhammad's pagan upbringing and his re-interpretation of the Hebrew Bible into the Quran.There is no question that some of Islam's theology and religious practices are heavily influenced by Muhammad's upbringing with his family, which ran the main shrine of the Arabic tribal gods, the Kaaba. As such, there are many similarities between the practices of Islam and the religious practices of many Arabic pagan cults of the day. Like the Sabeans, who prayed five times daily, fasted for a full lunar month, and considered the flesh of swine unlawful.
You're presuming alot. You're presuming that the Bible is the undoubtable word of God, that Jesus was his son, and that every word of Jesus' that's quoted in the Bible is quoted accurately. Those three things are matters of faith but not necessarily fact.
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