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Post by gillianren on Jul 30, 2007 3:30:05 GMT -4
Yes, well, I don't think the Bible is anybody's revealed anything, and so I'd like a little evidence with my wild predictions.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Jul 30, 2007 9:51:11 GMT -4
Matt. 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
If even Jesus didn't know when he would return it sounds a bit presumptuous for anyone else to say "this is the day."
Matt. 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
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Post by donnieb on Jul 30, 2007 16:57:38 GMT -4
So, you guys are both saying that the rapture will make all you Bible-thumpers disappear like *that* *snaps fingers*?
Bring it on.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 30, 2007 17:02:06 GMT -4
All I'm saying is that nobody knows when the Second Comming will be, so trying to predict an exact date is a fool's game.
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Post by Ginnie on Jul 30, 2007 18:31:10 GMT -4
Wouldn't everyone else dissapear too? We'd just go to different places. Some go to heaven, some go to hell and some turn into little black holes....
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Post by Count Zero on Jul 31, 2007 6:39:37 GMT -4
“You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas” -- Davy Crockett
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Post by echnaton on Jul 31, 2007 9:03:44 GMT -4
“You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas” -- Davy Crockett Given the weather here today, I think the first choice would be the better one. It may be hotter in hell but it can't be any more humid.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Jul 31, 2007 9:11:48 GMT -4
"If I owned Hell and Texas, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell."
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Aug 1, 2007 0:59:53 GMT -4
It's a contentious issue whether or not "that which restrains is taken out of the way" is the rapture of the church. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. So what do you think this verse is talking about? Consider that Noah and his family were taken out of the way before God destroyed the earth with water; Lot and his family were taken out of the way before the Lord destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah with fire; the Hebrews were protected when God judged Egypt. That Christ will remove His bride (the church) before the final judgment is completely consistent with the biblical pattern. 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.There's simply no biblical evidence that the church will go through the tribulation. Note in Revelation that not a single word is addressed to the church from Ch. 4:1 to the end. This is going to get too long if I post all references, but I'd be happy to respond to any further questioning. These are the issues where believers get tripped up: The rapture of the church and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. The rapture is in secret; nobody knows the day or hour. The "Second Coming" of Christ is visible--the whole world sees Him and those who are alive at the end of the battle of Armageddon know exactly what day He appears because the Bible tells us. The church (body of Christ, bride of Christ), is NOT the same group of people referred to in Revelation as "the elect." The elect are saved after the Rapture and will be martyred. The wrath of God does not fall upon the bride of Christ, but on a wicked and unbelieving world and specifically upon Israel as the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Why would God punish Christians when He has already "punished" Jesus? In response to your comment above, hypocrites will get theirs. We're not "so special" in the sense that we're better today than the martyrs throughout history, but the time for being taken out of the way just didn't happen in their lifetimes. Paul wrote about this very issue. You might ask yourself some common sense questions like why would God supernaturally protect 144,000 currently non-believing Jews throughout the tribulation while allowing the bride of Christ to be judged with the non-believers?
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 1, 2007 11:39:35 GMT -4
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. So what do you think this verse is talking about? It wasn't directed at me, but here's what I think it's talking about. The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible has a different reading for this verse: "7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and he it is who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time is fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way." The verse refers to Satan, not the members of the church. He was already at work on the church, misleading the members and causing a falling away (which is referred to in verse 3 of the same chapter) and the Lord allows him to do so until Satan will be bound (taken away), immediately after the Second Coming and at the start of the Millenium of peaceful rule under Christ. The "wrath to come" referred to here is not earthly peril, but the danger of damnation. See 1 Thess. 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Aug 1, 2007 13:37:14 GMT -4
For you, Jason. I pulled this up from Strong's (the word "letteth").
Lexicon Results for katechō (Strong's G2722) Greek for G2722 κατέχω Transliteration katechō Pronunciation
kä-te'-khō (Key) Part of Speech verb Root Word (Etymology) from G2596 and G2192
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to hold back, detain, retain a) from going away b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of) 1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance 2) to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of 2) to get possession of, take b) to possess
This is the translation for the Greek. That being the case, Smith's translation is incorrect.
Work calls. Let me get back to you on your other point.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 1, 2007 14:02:45 GMT -4
Joseph Smith's translation isn't really a translation. He called it that, but in fact it could be more properly called a restoration. It was not made from an examination of ancient manuscripts with scholarly attempts at deciphering them, it was made by asking God what the original intent was and then writing down the answer he received in his office as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Appealing to a Greek dictionary to attack Smith's translation is therefore useless, as he wasn't working with Greek manuscripts in the first place.
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Post by gillianren on Aug 1, 2007 14:07:27 GMT -4
And again I ask two things.
1. Is there non-Biblical evidence for any such thing, given variations in translation and interpretation, not to mention us heathens who look on the Bible as literature and mythology?
2. Since none of the verifiable prophecies previously posted came true, why should we believe any further prophecies from the same sources?
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 1, 2007 14:44:50 GMT -4
You shouldn't believe any of the predictions made on this thread, for precisely the reason you outlined - if the verifiable prophecies did not come true then obviously the forecaster is not a true prophet.
Deut. 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." That particular refrence was often found on stickers on Dutch doors in the early nineties when I was there, referring to the Jehovah's Wittnesses and their false prophecy that Christ's thousand-year reign would begin in 1975.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Aug 7, 2007 0:24:16 GMT -4
You shouldn't believe any of the predictions made on this thread, for precisely the reason you outlined - if the verifiable prophecies did not come true then obviously the forecaster is not a true prophet. Deut. 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." That particular refrence was often found on stickers on Dutch doors in the early nineties when I was there, referring to the Jehovah's Wittnesses and their false prophecy that Christ's thousand-year reign would begin in 1975. So how do you justify following the teachings of Joseph Smith who made several false prophecies?
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