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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 16:19:57 GMT -4
lol
No, Jason, I was not talking specifically about you. But I will provide a jounal for you elsewhere.
Back to the subject. What was your opinion of the videos?
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Sept 19, 2007 16:28:10 GMT -4
Sorry, I won't be able to view them until tomorrow evening at the earliest.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Sept 20, 2007 22:46:56 GMT -4
My thoughts on the videos are that Ben is taking the right path here, and Craig has not.
Craig is wrong - there are many LDS people who have overcome homosexual feelings. They may not testify about it over the pulpit every month, but then most members don't testify about overcoming sexual sins over the pulpit - it's a rather personal subject and there are children in the congregation, after all. Also, it is not homosexual feelings that are sinful, it is actions. Just as a member won't be in trouble if he has some lustful feelings about a woman he's not married to if he doesn't act on them (though he's better off if he can learn to not dwell on them), no one will get in trouble for admiting to having occasional homosexual feelings. In fact they'll get all the help they can.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 21, 2007 19:13:12 GMT -4
My thoughts on the videos are that Ben is taking the right path here, and Craig has not. Craig is wrong - there are many LDS people who have overcome homosexual feelings. They may not testify about it over the pulpit every month, but then most members don't testify about overcoming sexual sins over the pulpit - it's a rather personal subject and there are children in the congregation, after all. Also, it is not homosexual feelings that are sinful, it is actions. Just as a member won't be in trouble if he has some lustful feelings about a woman he's not married to if he doesn't act on them (though he's better off if he can learn to not dwell on them), no one will get in trouble for admitting to having occasional homosexual feelings. In fact they'll get all the help they can. What if what some scientists say is true that there is a gay gene? If that were the case, and homosexuality is like, as they say, color blindness, then isn't what this institution is doing is immoral? Forcing gay people to reproduce and thus passing on what some might consider a genetic defect is subjecting their kids to misery? Just food for thought. It still does not make sense to me that people can say it is a choice. So what if it is passed on genetically. And if it is like colorblindness and skips generations, it would not have been illuminated by natural selection and evolution. Clearly this video shows that it is not a choice just as being straight is not a choice. I noticed the man in one video saying "you know, we don't get along because I am not really into kissing". If some unimaginable institution forced me to marry a man, I would not be "into kissing" as well. This pretty much seals the argument to me of it being a choice or not. One man said he was gay even though he had never been with a man. And he was married to a woman. No spiritual magic turned him straight here. Also, put aside the biology for a moment. These people are involved in fairly unhappy marrages. Is this fair to the kids as well? Sorry if there are typos.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 21, 2007 19:15:40 GMT -4
Are you accusing me of lying to you Bill? no I am not. saying something that someone honestly believes is not lying.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Sept 21, 2007 21:57:07 GMT -4
What if what some scientists say is true that there is a gay gene? Hopefully they'll spell it better. But they'll also be wrong. But it's not like color blindness, so it's not immoral for a moral organization to ask those who want to be counted as its members to behave in a moral fashion, and there's no danger of passing on a genetic defect to one's kids because there is no genetic defect involved. So how do they know color blindness is genetic then? Bull. This video shows that Craig and Ben think it's not a choice, or at least they did when they gave the interview. That doesn't prove anything. Actually only one is involved in a marriage still, and it seems fairly happy (although we naturally can't tell too much from this short a video). The other ruined his wife's life and that of his kids. No, that's not fair - it was extremely selfish. EDIT: I understand Craig feels real pain here, but people feel real pain when they make the wrong decision. Hopefully, with the help of some friends and good spiritual leaders he'll turn things around.
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Post by RAF on Sept 23, 2007 14:14:57 GMT -4
If there is to be freedom of religion, then there must also be freedom from religion. Those who do not subscribe to any religious dogma MUST be allowed to follow their own "path".
That's what "freedom" is...
Religion(s) don't have a "copywrite" on the idea of marriage, so any argument against gay/lesbian marriage that is based on religious beliefs is not only irrelevant, it demonstrates that person to be a hypocrite.
Nuff said...
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reynoldbot
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A paper-white mask of evil.
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Post by reynoldbot on Oct 8, 2007 3:12:27 GMT -4
Good lord I thought for sure this thread would have died over the months that I was gone.
RAF, your statements are clear, concise, and logical. Good show. I imagine it must be hard to argue with those statements other than to say (in effect), "nuh uh!"
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
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Post by reynoldbot on Oct 8, 2007 3:28:24 GMT -4
I'm just going to jump right back in:
"Yes, you chose to be straight. If you really wanted too, you could go find an opportunity to have homosexual sex and do it. You might not enjoy it unless you did it all the time and developed a taste for it, but it is your choice that is keeping you straight.
Sorry if that was a bit crude, but I thought the point worth making."
To have homosexual sex, I would have to be physically aroused. Since I am not sexually attracted to men, I would find that hard to do...Unless I was the "catcher." But I have something of an inkling that I would not enjoy that either. (Ever taken a suppository? That's a good guage of your propensity for anal sex)
I don't choose to be sexually attracted to women. If it were that easy then I could in theory choose to find women unappealing and suddenly find men to be sexually attractive. Here, I will try it now.
...Nope, it didn't work. I am still undenyingly and unerringly attracted to women. I always have been attracted to women and I will always be attracted to women. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how much I could ever want to be attracted to men, I will always be straight.
But that's just me. This is in its essence a subjective and individual issue.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Oct 8, 2007 12:27:26 GMT -4
This thread was dead until you resurrected it, 'bot.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
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Post by Al Johnston on Oct 8, 2007 12:27:48 GMT -4
Good lord I thought for sure this thread would have died over the months that I was gone. Yes, pretty much everything worth saying was said on page 1. Go figure.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Oct 9, 2007 4:59:29 GMT -4
This thread was dead until you resurrected it, 'bolt.
At first I was kind of looking around for this "bolt", then I realized you got my username wrong. I find it highly entertaining what people come up with when they can't remember my username. I think i've been called "raymond" on more than one occasion.
As for the thread being dead, I guess it had been what like two weeks since a post had been made, but that's fairly recent compared to when I left it. RAF's post was a pretty eloquent way to end it too, I guess I shoulda kept my big mouth shut.
Yes, pretty much everything worth saying was said on page 1. Go figure.
Isn't that the nature of all internet debates?
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Oct 9, 2007 11:09:14 GMT -4
"'bolt" is short for "reynoldbolt". It's an intentional shortening of your user name - you may have missed the apostrophe at the beginning.
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Post by Waspie_Dwarf on Oct 9, 2007 14:05:42 GMT -4
"'bolt" is short for "reynoldbolt". It's an intentional shortening of your user name - you may have missed the apostrophe at the beginning. Which would be fine if his name was reynoldbolt. As it isn't his point stands.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Oct 9, 2007 14:39:07 GMT -4
Then I stand corrected.
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