Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 12:50:48 GMT -4
You argument would seem to persuppose that if my son or daughter steals a candy bar, and I really love them, that I would have to change my mind on whether it's moral to steal candy bars. I must accept the "candy bar thief they are" rather than using whatever influence I have to convince them that it is in fact wrong to steal candy bars and to help them get over the habbit of stealing candy bars, and that If I don't accept their conduct as simply "the way they are" then I'm a fearful bigot.
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Post by RAF on Nov 27, 2007 13:05:59 GMT -4
You argument would seem to persuppose that if my son or daughter steals a candy bar, and I really love them, that I would have to change my mind on whether it's moral to steal candy bars. Ya know, I didn't think your argument could POSSIBILY get any "lamer", but I was wrong. Are you seriously equating homosexuality with theft? That's the stupidest analogy I've ever heard. Are you going to answer the questions I asked or not?
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 13:20:30 GMT -4
I am equating one form of conduct that I view as immoral with another. I used "candy bar theft" in part to show how silly the argument that "who is performing an immoral act should affect whether I view it as immoral" is. Replace it with "rape" or "murder" or some other more serious crime if you wish - the analogy holds.
"Would I accept who they are?" Is that the question you meant? The question presupposes that homosexuality is an inborn trait, and that a person's sexual prefrence is "hard wired" and inflexible. I don't believe that's the case. A person's homosexual behavior is not "who a person is." Therefore the question is not really answerable as you have presented it. I would continue to love my son or daughter no matter what they did, but that doesn't mean I would be accepting of their behavior.
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Post by RAF on Nov 27, 2007 13:57:44 GMT -4
I am equating one form of conduct that I view as immoral with another. I used "candy bar theft" in part to show how silly the argument that " who is performing an immoral act should affect whether I view it as immoral" is. Replace it with "rape" or "murder" or some other more serious crime if you wish - the analogy holds. Your "view" is irrelevant and your "analogy" continues to be STUPID. Even stupider now that you have added rape and murder. ...and without evidence to the contrary, your belief continues to be irrelevant. You don't seem to understand that you can not objectively evaluate the question of gay marriage because of your built-in bias...ie. your religious views. So your answer is no... How about the other question...would you expect your gay son or daughter to accept your biased religious view concerning homosexuality?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 14:06:57 GMT -4
Your "view" is irrelevant and your "analogy" continues to be STUPID. Even stupider now that you have added rape and murder. Well, I don't know how I can possibly respond to such an eloquent and logical refutation of my analogy. I could say exactly the same thing about yourself, except that your views are based on the mushy feel-good tolerance of the politically correct and the propoganda of the "gay rights" movement rather than a particular religion. "No" is an inaccurate oversimplification of my response. Essentially yes. I would only teach what I consider correct to my child, and would encourage them to behave in what I veiw as a moral fashion. I very much doubt that any parent out there wants their child to not accept their own moral views.
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Post by RAF on Nov 27, 2007 15:34:33 GMT -4
...your views are based on the mushy feel-good tolerance of the politically correct and the propoganda of the "gay rights" movement rather than a particular religion. Where in the BLOODY HELL did you aquire that bit of knowledge from?... bible study?? Don't even presume to think that you have the vaguest clue as to what my motivations are...because you would be wrong...dumbass... I can no longer continue in this thread...I'm afraid I'll just end up telling Jason how big of a bigot he actually is. I pity your children...
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 15:51:29 GMT -4
Take a chill pill. It's only an internet forum.
Okay, where did you get your idea that homosexual behavior is an inborn trait and that it's immoral to not "accept these people for what they are"?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 16:23:02 GMT -4
What standard other than your religious beliefs do you use to call homosexuality "immoral?"
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 16:41:55 GMT -4
I've gone over that in some length earlier in this thread. In a nutshell it is immoral because it damages a person's mental health and emotional makeup.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 17:09:23 GMT -4
Opinion articles from anti-homosexual groups are not very convincing - that is all you have offered. If you want to claim that "it damages a person's mental health and emotional makeup," you need to provide mainstream studies that support that statement. You have not.
If your argument against homosexual marriage is based on your religious belief and psuedoscience, I'd say your argument is not very good.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 18:21:36 GMT -4
I cited articles by trained mental health professionals. They cited published studies, usually performed by self-identified homosexuals, that supported their opinions, and pointed out obvious problems with other published studies that seemed to contradict those opinions.
How do you define "mainstream" here?
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Post by Ginnie on Nov 27, 2007 18:24:44 GMT -4
Yeah, Jason's analogies suck. BUT...I can understand his point too. Anyone would be in a stressful situation if their kids moral behavior differed drastically from their own. The difference here is that most people on this thread accept the fact that some people are gay, and that that behavior is acceptable to them. If I found out my son was gay, I wouldn't be disapointed with him or feel any negativity at all I hope. He's who he his.
People hide many things from their parents. Even when they are older. I would never let my grandmother know that I had meat on Good Friday. She would be shocked and possibly disapointed in me. Who needs that?
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 18:54:08 GMT -4
So if you found out your son was on drugs, would you accept that "he is who he is" or would you intervene and try to get him in a rehab program?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 19:01:25 GMT -4
"Drugs" are illegal (at least the kind I believe you are talking about). Homosexuality is not illegal.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 19:08:08 GMT -4
Okay, substitute some activity you consider immoral that isn't illegal and ask the same question again.
How about alcoholism?
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