Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 26, 2007 12:07:38 GMT -4
I think the fundamentalist objection to Harry Potter is not that it's "too real" but that the glorification of magic and the occult may lead children to investigate the real occult and "real" magic, which they view as dangerous.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 26, 2007 13:25:53 GMT -4
That is my impression as well. Its based on the (mistaken) belief that the occult can actually tap into some kind of supernatural force.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 26, 2007 13:47:01 GMT -4
Well, I'm not sure I would argue that the occult is completely harmless, but certainly it seems that the Harry Potter books do far more good than harm. Getting a large number of kids to read 700+ page books is no mean feat.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 26, 2007 14:04:15 GMT -4
Speaking purely from a Pagan perspective, I have to say that, while the books are also moral in our religion and also carry a lot of strong Pagan themes, if they're intended to be a portrayal of modern--or ancient!--Paganism, they fail. Despite what several Christians have told me. After all, they do celebrate Christmas and Easter (instead of Yule and Ostara, for the curious). In the last book, Harry says, "Thank God!" Note that capitalized "G"--and that it's singular and has no article.
However, they are indeed very moral books. Those who don't believe they are, or don't believe their morality is also Christian in nature as well as falling into the moral structure of many other worldviews, obviously haven't bothered reading the books before letting their prejudices show.
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Post by wingerii on Jul 26, 2007 17:44:16 GMT -4
Slightly OT, but am I the only one who doesn't get the whole Harry Potter craze? I've only read the first four, and thought they were okay, but I know plenty of people who only read Harry Potter books. That's like me only watching Star Wars movies or only listening to Radiohead albums for the rest of my life!
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Post by Ginnie on Jul 26, 2007 18:42:25 GMT -4
I read the first three when my kids were younger. It was more to share and discuss the stories with them than my own interest in the books. It is rare to find literature that both kids and adults can enjoy. Generally, critics do not regard them as well written, but the storylines are interesting. It's amazing how many kids have gotten back into reading because of these books. There are now even Adult Editions of the Harry Potter series. I worked with wholesale sales of Children's Literature for a few years and sold to teachers and librarians. It was really difficult for them to find books for kids to read. Years ago kids read Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys. I remember reading Have Spacesuit Will Travel in grade five. I bet today most grade fivers wouldn't be able to read it or even interested in reading it. Authors like Lois Duncan and Roald Dahl wrote many books that were popular, but kids were increasingly turned away from reading - I guess life started presenting more distractions. As kids interest in reading lessened, their ability to read suffered. Schools in Canada in the 70's stopped teaching grammar and phonics for some strange reason which severely crippled kids literacy levels. Thus publishers started to print dummed down versions of popular books - so called Hi-Lo books (Hi Interest - Low Vocabulary) . A classic like Little Women that originally was written for 13 or 14 year olds were adapted and published with the vocabulary of a Grade three level. Can you imagine reading Bram Stokers Dracular in such a version? . Then R.L. Stine came along with the Fear St. and Goosebumps series. Teachers hated buying them because they were pretty crappy but it was all they could find that kids would read. I remember once having a class of grade sixes at our warehouse and screaming at the sight of a spinner of Goosebump books. The teachers had to do crowd control and try to organize an orderly way to get the kids their books. In Canada, a hardcover is a bestseller if it sells 5000 copies. The company I work for put out 180.000 copies of the latest HP book last week into stores across Canada! And we probably won't get many returns back. The Harry Potter books are quite a phenomenon and is unlikey to be repeated anytime soon. Of course if J.K. Rowling starts a new series that appeals to the kids, it may not stop.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 26, 2007 18:52:33 GMT -4
I would say that their appeal is because they are complicated enough to entertain adults while remaining an easy enough read for kids. Much that appears in the wizarding world is old hat to someone who has read a lot of fantasy or is familiar with mythology, but it's new to its target audience. Are they great literature? Perhaps not, and maybe they'll be forgotten in thirty years, but success in pop culture is often found in having the right message at the right time, regardless of the quality of the message.
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Post by BertL on Jul 26, 2007 20:21:40 GMT -4
For me, I think that when the morals of a book coincide with the morals of a religion, it doesn't make the book have religious morals. Even though I'm not a religious person I found that many of my morals are not very different from a Christian's morals. That doesn't mean I don't disagree with Christian morals on some fundemental things (I do), but generally I find a lot of similarities. Of course, I must add to that that I prefer to focus and emphasise on the positive side of things. (I emphasise on the similarities, in this case.) I'm quite a positivist. And that's not a bad thing. If it were, I wouldn't have written this paragraph to emphasis on positive things more. To me it's good to see that things like self-sacrifice and being good and nice and stuff are considered "Christian" morals. However, I myself would never bind a religion to any set of morals. In my opinion it is up to the religious person him/herself to 'decide' what is considered to be moral, and what is considered to be immoral, as opposed to being encouraged to live along a pre-made set of morals. I'm sorry about all this talk on morals. It's summer holiday in Holland, and that means eight weeks of no schools. I miss the philosophy classes. It's hard not to derail from talk about morals with a subject like this. So I'll end with something on-topic (positive, yay!) I must say I have never read any of the Harry Potter books (apart from about a maximum of one page). I did see the films, I hope they didn't spoil the books too much for me. I'm getting all of the books in about a week from now (all in English), through a good friend who is on vacation in England right now. So if the Potter books don't use too un-understandable English, I'll be back and fully informed on the moral themes in the Harry Potter series in, let's say, a month.
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Post by Ginnie on Jul 26, 2007 21:17:53 GMT -4
So if the Potter books don't use too un-understandable English,
...written in much simpler English than some of the posts on this forum.
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Post by BertL on Aug 8, 2007 21:58:31 GMT -4
I've just finished reading all Harry Potter books (and it has been keeping me awake for quite some time - I'm afraid the past days I have read a lot at times where I could - should - be sleeping). I must say there are certainly lessons that can be learned from the series. Asking myself the question whether or not the Harry Potter books are a Christian parable would be pointless, because I do not have the knowledge of Christianity to compare the two.
After reading the series I have asked myself which are important themes that keep coming back. Trust, friendship, selflessness and courage are only a grasp at all of the themes you can find in the series, if you look for them. And that is where I ask myself the question whether or not these themes that seem to be so obviously there in the book to me are a reflection of my own feelings towards what is important in the world. It seems obvious to me that these four themes are present in the book - perhaps that is because I (sub)conciously looked for them while reading.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 9, 2007 12:08:16 GMT -4
They are certainly there - selflessness in particular. Harry is described by Dumbledore as a "truly selfless person" and is willing to sacrifice himself in order to destroy Voldemort and the greater good of his friends.
The fact that he does this sacrifice alone, and appears to be at a place called King's Cross (also the name of the chapter), are big tip-offs to the Christian background to the story.
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Post by Waspie_Dwarf on Aug 9, 2007 13:29:28 GMT -4
and appears to be at a place called King's Cross (also the name of the chapter), are big tip-offs to the Christian background to the story. You are reading far too much into "King's Cross". It has very little to do with Christianity, but it is a real place in London with a real railway station. The name does not have Christian connotation's but arises because it was the location of a memorial to George IV.
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Post by BertL on Aug 9, 2007 13:39:04 GMT -4
I can see the link with Jesus's cross, though. It's an interesting interpretation of the story, but not one which I would have.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 9, 2007 14:02:45 GMT -4
You are reading far too much into "King's Cross". It has very little to do with Christianity, but it is a real place in London with a real railway station. The fact that it's a real place doesn't matter so much as to why Rowling chose to have Harry's vision of the afterlife after his selfless sacrifice occur in a place with that particular name, in a chapter with that particular name. Rowling was once herself asked if she is Christian: "Yes I am. Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." In other words, if you know the author is Christian you could have guessed that Harry would be selflessly sacrificing his life at some point. Rowlings is Anglican.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
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Post by Al Johnston on Aug 9, 2007 16:08:03 GMT -4
In other words, if you know the author is Christian you could have guessed that Harry would be selflessly sacrificing his life at some point. You could probably guess as much from repeated statements that this is definitely the last book of the series, whatever the religion of the author.
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