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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 17:03:40 GMT -4
At the request by Jason to restart a Mormon Thread, I am starting what I consider to be a fascinating subject. Is what is in this video true? www.gelsana.com/blood2.html
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 17:12:38 GMT -4
As soon as at least one other person on this forum shows that they have any interest at all in this subject I will respond.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 18, 2007 19:28:32 GMT -4
I'm game. To me, it's just more religious doctrine. A lot of Catholics believe that all Protestants will go to hell and are in league with the devil (and vice versa). The Christian church has massacred thousands upon thousands of people throughout the ages. So called 'witches' were burned or hanged after being tortured. Wars were declared and innocent people killed in the name of God, and are still dying. Anyone who doesn't believe someones's religious doctrines are 'heretics' or 'devil worshippers' or 'godless' or any number of disparing comments. Catholics fight the Protestants in Ireland. Moslems fight the Christians in Lebanon. Black people were hanged in the south by good loving Christians. Slavery was practiced for hundreds of years in God-fearing countries, and nothing was thought wrong with that at the time. Woman are marginalized and prohibited from the education system, or killed if their husband passes away. People are divided into 'castes' and treated like dirt. Some priests molest children and are protected by the church. Homosexuals are considered 'sinners' and hated by God. All these things have happened in different parts of the world and are happening still. So what's so surprising about the video if it is accurate? Hey Bill, some Baptists have interesting viewpoints too: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 21:27:14 GMT -4
Awh, crap. My first draft evaporated into the electronic ether. Guess I'll have to start over.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 21:29:46 GMT -4
[/quote]
LO has me nervous about what to say.
But I sure I am safe in only responding to this one issue and saying that years ago, before Fred Phelps was famous, I had a very lengthy email exchange with him. You can imagine how it went.
We were debating if the bible was to be interpreted literally.
That was a long time ago. In fact, it was 11 years, ago, I am pretty sure.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 22:07:58 GMT -4
Okay. Short answer: No, the film is not true. Long answer: This appears to be an excerpt of the film The God Makers II - a rather infamous anti-Mormon film produced by Ed Decker, a man who was excommunicated from the LDS church in 1976. Since that time he has made something of a career out of producing anti-Mormon materials (and works denouncing the Free Masons). Several bomb threats and death threats against members of the LDS church have been blamed on this film, and even Jerald and Sandra Tanner, famous anti-Mormons who were involved in the making of the first God Makers have denounced the film for its inaccuracies. Ed accused them of being in the pay of the LDS church and offered to "exorcise their demons." Dick Baer, a former associate of his, said in 1993 that Ed has a penchant to sensationalize, embellish on facts and center on bizarre issues to try to shock people."(February 25th 1993, Salt Lake Tribune). Enough about the author of this tripe. On to the tripe itself. To begin with, the film gives the false impression that Mormon Doctrine is an official publication of the church containing official LDS doctrine. In fact, Mormon Doctrine was written by Bruce R. McConkie before he became an apostle of the church (he was a Seventy at the time). When Elder McConkie wrote the book the First Presidency of the Church had some misgivings about it precisely because they could see that it might be mistaken as official. Elder McConkie willingly agreed to abide by their guidance, and they suggested some changes before it was finally printed. The book was revised at least twice more during McConkie's tenure as an Apostle. It is still published today by Deseret Book, a company that is owned by the LDS church but which does not produce the official printed works of the church. Church members recognize that it is mostly Elder McConkie's personal opinion, and avoid using it to teach out of, but find it occasionally useful (I don't own a copy, though my parents do and I've read most of it). Mormon Doctrine is written in an encyclopedic format, and the entry on "Blood Atonement" is a denunciation of the anti-Mormon criticism. A more full account of Elder McConkie's position on the subject can be found here, in a letter he wrote in 1978 to Thomas B. McAfee: www.shields-research.org/General/blood_atonement.htmAlso of interest may be the official proclamation the church gave concerning "Blood Atonement" in 1889: "Lillian" is Lillian LeBaron Chynoweth. She was never a member of the LDS church, but was a member of the "Church of the Lamb of God", a polygamist group that was based in California, formerly led by Ervil LeBaron. There are a few splinter groups throughout the areas the Mormon Pioneers first settled. They are not affiliated with the church, and most are practicers of polygamy. They tend to have their own prophets and their attitude towards many Mormon doctrines differ from that of the LDS church. The LeBaron group is particularly notorious because it murdered those of its members it thought were straying and some leading members of other splinter groups. The group may be guilty for as many as 25 murders, and several members are still sought by the FBI today. Lillian, however is not one of those victims. She committed suicide in September of 1992. All the film says is that she "was found in her home, dead from a gunshot wound," strongly implying that she had been murdered. The fact that the film does not tell the viewer that it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound should give you some idea of how much the film likes to color the facts. "Art" was apparently a former member of the LDS church at the time the video was made (he mentions having been "cast out" - excommunicated - probably for polygamy, as he is labeled "Polygamist" by the film). His account of "blood atonement" has little bearing on the doctrines of the LDS church, and for some reason he seems to think Jesus shed his own blood as an infant. Mr. Decker decided to film the interview of "Art" on the public sidewalk in front of the church office building in downtown Salt Lake, perhaps in the hope that the viewer would therefore believe that "Art's" opinions were somehow representative of members of the church (I recognized the place instantly - it's across the street from the office building I currently work in). Thelma Greer was a former member of the church at the time of the video. Her account of "Blood Atonement" seems to be derived from her Great-Grandfather's book Mormonism Unveiled; Or The Life and Confessions of the Late Mormon Bishop John D. Lee, a book written by (or possibly ghost written for) Mr. Lee after he was excommunicated from the church during his trial for his part in the Mt. Meadows Massacre. Mr. Lee was executed by firing squad on the site of the massacre. At the time he wrote the book he had every motivation to smear the church, and he did so in this sensationalist drivel. His accounts of being an avenging angel of the church and slitting the throats of apostates are not credible and have never been substantiated. The book's copyright was held by Mr. Lee's lawyer, who defended Lee pro bono but collected all the profits from the book's sale. I beleive that covers everything in the excerpt.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 22:10:04 GMT -4
Aw, not Fred Phelps. That's the kind of guy that gives Christians a bad name.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 18, 2007 22:14:37 GMT -4
Why I posted reference to Fred Phelps was to show that some crazies can be found probably in all religions.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 22:42:08 GMT -4
Well I'll agree to that. John D. Lee is a good example of a crazy who was a member of my own church.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 18, 2007 23:33:21 GMT -4
ginnie
To me, it's just more religious doctrine. A lot of Catholics believe that all Protestants will go to hell and are in league with the devil (and vice versa). I don’t know about being in league with the devil, but the rest of that is true.
The Christian church has massacred thousands upon thousands of people throughout the ages. That would be the Roman Catholic Church (a pagan institution) and it has massacred millions, not thousands
So called 'witches' were burned or hanged after being tortured. I don’t have enough information on this to comment.
Wars were declared and innocent people killed in the name of God, and are still dying. Most of the wars since Constantine were engineered by the Roman Catholic Church.
Anyone who doesn't believe someones's religious doctrines are 'heretics' or 'devil worshippers' or 'godless' or any number of disparing comments. “Heretic” is not necessarily an insulting term, same for “godless.” Why can’t we call people who worship Satan “devil worshipers”?
Catholics fight the Protestants in Ireland. Moslems fight the Christians in Lebanon. It’s unlikely that any of those referred to here are Christian in doctrine.
Black people were hanged in the south by good loving Christians. Sorry, they weren’t Christian.
Slavery was practiced for hundreds of years in God-fearing countries, and nothing was thought wrong with that at the time. Not God’s fault.
Woman are marginalized and prohibited from the education system, or killed if their husband passes away. Not by Christians.
People are divided into 'castes' and treated like dirt. Not by Christians.
Some priests molest children and are protected by the church. The Roman Catholic Church, again.
Homosexuals are considered 'sinners' and hated by God. All people are considered sinners by God. God hates all sin, not just sex sin.
All these things have happened in different parts of the world and are happening still. True.
So what's so surprising about the video if it is accurate? People like their religious beliefs to be accurately represented.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 0:18:37 GMT -4
I am curious, what is a Hoosiers and what is a Dead Hoosier? BTW, you realise that rules for treating slaves and how slaves should behave are in many passages in the bible. Of course, there could be a misinterpretation of what a "slave" is, maybe servants or endentured servants, I guess. The point is that plantation owners interpreted these as if they spoke to them and their culture. I am not being critical. Just point out something I think is interesting. Exodus 21:2 'When you purchase a Hebrew slave...' Exodus 21:2 '...his service will last for six years.' Exodus 21:2,4 'In the seventh year he will leave a free man. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and children will belong to the master, and he will depart alone.' Deuteronomy 15:16 'But if the slave says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family, and is well off with you... Deuteronomy 15:17 '...then you must take an awl and drive it through the slave's ear and into the door. He will be your servant forever.' Exodus 21:7 'If a man sells his daughter as a slave...' Exodus 21:7 '...she will not leave as male slaves do.' Exodus 21:8 'If she does not please her master who intended her for himself...' Exodus 21:8 '...he must let her be bought back.' Exodus 21:20 'If someone beats his slave...' Exodus 21:20 '...and the slave dies at his hands...' Exodus 21:20 '...he shall certainly be avenged.' Exodus 21:21 'But should the slave survive for one day or two...' Exodus 21:21 '...he will pay no penalty because the slave is his owner's property.'Maybe that means something other than it appears to me to mean. I am just saying this because you mentioned slavery and those people were not of God. I am just throwing out that people who owned and even beat slaves did so because they THOUGHT that the bible allowed it to a certain degree. That is all. I am just quoting scripture that I have noticed you have as well.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 0:20:32 GMT -4
Jason,
This is very interesting and will take some time for me to ponder and think about. I appreciate your going in to this to some depth. Thank you.
There is a lot in this video. Why would they be motivated to lie so?
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 0:27:49 GMT -4
So called 'witches' were burned or hanged after being tortured.I don’t have enough information on this to comment.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2007 0:30:06 GMT -4
Bill Thompson,
What I see in those OT verses you quoted, as well as others, is that God put limits on how His people could treat the slaves they took (which he didn't tell them to do). I was saying it's not God's fault that people all over the world have kept slaves and thought there was nothing wrong with it. You can see a tightening up of the moral law in Christ's Sermon on the Mount.
Don't worry. You don't have to tiptoe around me.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2007 0:31:10 GMT -4
Jason, This is very interesting and will take some time for me to ponder and think about. I appreciate your going in to this to some depth. Thank you. There is a lot in this video. Why would they be motivated to lie so? Didn't you say in the other Mormon thread that this video is pretty accurate?
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