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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 11:40:05 GMT -4
It's the time of year here in the United States when religious conservatives and opportunists decry the "War on Christmas." This is a supposed assault on the Christian traditions observed during the holiday season. The most common complaint is that businesses don't "properly" label products as Christmas-related, but instead call them "seasonal" or "holiday" related. Today, Lowe's stores are under attack today for calling their "Christmas" trees "family" trees.
There are obvious reasons for stores to go with more generic labels, so I'm not going to go into it here.
But it might be a good time to note which Christmas traditions have nothing at all to do with Christianity:
All of them.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 12:11:32 GMT -4
Nonsense. To beign with I'm pretty sure nativity scenes have something to do with Christianity. That's one Christmas tradition I don't think you can argue with.
Candy canes are shepherd's crooks. The shepherds were special witnesses of Christ's birth. Christmas trees are evergreen - evergreen represents eternal life which is the gift of Christ to mankind, and the tree of life is a symbol in Christian works. Stars in Christmas decorations of course represent the star of bethlehem. Santa Claus is a reworking of the story of the Catholic Bishop St. Nicholas. Almost unrecognizable in his American form, but he still gives gifts to children as his original did. Gift giving can be said to be in the tradition of the wise men (traditionally three) giving gifts to the savior. And the prominence of gold and silver in Christmas decorations could be traced to their three gifts. Holy is evergreen (eternal life) and has red berries - symbolizing Christ's blood. In fact, the colors red and green are good symbols for life and blood.
My extended family has the tradition of having a Christmas pagent featuring the story of Jesus' birth, and my immediate family always reads the story on Christmas eve. That obviously has something to do with Christianity. Many Christmas carols relate to Christ's birth (although many also do not). Dicken's A Christmas Carol is not overtly Christian but has the Christian values of redemption and charity, and Jacob Marley is certainly in a form of Hell or Purgatory. Bells ringing on Christmas are of course church bells.
In fact the Christmas traditions or symbols that really have nothing to do with Christianity are very few - nutcrackers, snowmen, eggnog, and snowflakes come to mind.
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Post by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on Nov 20, 2007 14:10:13 GMT -4
That sounds like folk etymology. Decorating trees, and feasting, at yule are definitely pagan traditions. Father Christmas/Santa Claus is an amalgam of the medieval Saint Nicholas myth with the Odin tradition. (In these parts he shows up as Sinterklaas riding a white horse on December 5th, St. Nicholas' Eve.) Funny thing is, the medieval interpretation of St. Nicholas as the 'Defender of the Children' is based on a translation error. The original historical account referred to him has the 'Defender of the Innocent'. Apparently he saved some people from being put to death by proving their innocence. (So he was a detective too.)
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 14:22:22 GMT -4
Which is more important, the origin of a symbol or tradition or what it's current practicioners believe is the significance of a symbol or tradition?
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Post by echnaton on Nov 20, 2007 14:37:12 GMT -4
But it might be a good time to note which Christmas traditions have nothing at all to do with Christianity:
How can our traditions have nothing to to with us? So what they are adopted from other ancient traditions, they are practices of modern Christianity and have meaning to modern Christians. If you want to make the case that Christian practice has changes since the original church, you probably won't get much argument there. But again, so what? Churches change their practices and liturgy with changes in public tastes and technology. Churches are not museums.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 15:05:33 GMT -4
My point is that it is fairly ridiculous for Christians to cry fowl when they perceive others to be shunning the labeling of all things Christmas -- when most of the popular Christmas-time traditions don't belong to Christianity.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 15:36:38 GMT -4
I personally feel refusing to call Christmas Christmas is as silly as using CE instead of AD. Changing what you call it doesn't change who's birthday it is intended to celebrate.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 20, 2007 15:49:02 GMT -4
Today, Lowe's stores are under attack today for calling their "Christmas" trees "family" trees. Which would be utterly ludicrous of them to do, had it not been an error in their printing department. In the stores and on the website, they're called "Christmas trees." They feel pretty stupid about the whole thing themselves. However, as to saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas," great! Aside from the fact that there are quite a lot of people who don't celebrate Christmas but instead celebrate one of the other holidays at the same time of year, Christians celebrate two holidays (at least!) at this time of year. Remember that New Year's is just a week later. Ergo, "holidays." Plural. (And at least to Catholics, even New Year's is a holy day; it's the Feast of the Holy Family.) Actually, there's a tirade hanging on the bulletin board of an apartment complex across the street from mine pointing out that, at its base, Christmas is a Pagan feast. After all, if you actually sit and read the details in the Bible, Jesus cannot have been born in December.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 16:10:13 GMT -4
Nope - he was probably born in April. But that doesn't make Christmas pagan. If you celebrated your birthday on the wrong day, would that mean you were actually celebrating someone else's birthday, and the presents, cards, and cake really belong to this other person instead?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 16:20:48 GMT -4
There are indications that the Nativity story is borrowed from earlier traditions. This subject could be a whole thread by itself.
The "Christmas" tree did not originate with Christianity. A decorated fir tree at winter solstice celebrations far predates Christianity.
Giving gifts at winter solstice (Saturnalia in Rome) also predates Christianity.
December 25 isn't even Jesus' birthday, it was instead that of Mithras (and others) - whose birthday was likely a corruption of the Solstice date.
Pagans decorated their homes with fir tree clippings.
Kissing under the mistletoe was a Druidic tradition.
As to the candy cane, I think you might be right about the shepherd's crook shaped ones - but straight candy canes existed before that, so this is still another example of Christianity taking an outside idea for its own use.
Christmas without all the seasonal Pagan trimmings makes for a fairly sterile holiday (my humble opinion). It is made much more palatable by the traditions it has taken from other systems of belief.
My girlfriend and I are not Christians. We do celebrate some of that Pagan traditions. We have several trees. As non-Christians, are we just being silly to not go ahead and call them "Christmas" trees?
Also, as to the silliness of CE versus AD -- one in three humans is a Christian, so what is silly is to expect the whole world to use a dating system that includes a Christian denotation. That is silly.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 16:25:32 GMT -4
Yes, you are being silly to not call them Christmas trees - if they are otherwise indistinguishable from other Christmas trees. If you had a Festivus pole or something you might be less silly in not calling it a Christmas tree. If you've got a pine tree (even if its fake) in your house during December and it's got lights and ornaments on it then it's a Christmas tree, no matter what you decide to call it.
I'm not forcing them to use our dating system. Go right on using your own calenders. I just think that changing the initials but still using the same system is silly.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 16:38:02 GMT -4
Or September. Or possibly not at all.
So even if we are consciously celebrating traditions that predate Christianity - traditions that involved decorating a fir tree at the time of the winter solstice - celebrations that actually have some meaning within the context - the darkest night of the year - the beginning of the sun's return - (no, not the "son's return") - the "evergreen" plant - even with all that, I should still call it a "Christ's Mass" tree?
I think we've come back to silly, again.
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Al Johnston
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Post by Al Johnston on Nov 20, 2007 16:44:33 GMT -4
If you've got a pine tree (even if its fake) in your house during December and it's got lights and ornaments on it then it's a Christmas tree, no matter what you decide to call it. Pine? PINE? It's supposed to be a SPRUCE! Heretic! ;D
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 16:47:20 GMT -4
So even if we are consciously celebrating traditions that predate Christianity - traditions that involved decorating a fir tree at the time of the winter solstice - celebrations that actually have some meaning within the context - the darkest night of the year - the beginning of the sun's return - (no, not the "son's return") - the "evergreen" plant - even with all that, I should still call it a "Christ's Mass" tree? ARE you in fact consciously celebrating a pagan festival, or do you have a Christmas tree because it looks nice, it brings back nice childhood memories, and all the neighbors have one?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 18:00:43 GMT -4
We are consciously celebrating the tradition of the winter solstice festival and the return of the sun.
I hate to break it to you, Jason, but if I decide my tree is not a Christmas tree -- it just isn't a Christmas tree. I have no problem at all with you calling your tree a Christmas tree, but you don't get to tell me what mine is.
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