Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 18:07:47 GMT -4
We are consciously celebrating the tradition of the winter solstice festival and the return of the sun. Sure you are. And if no one else around you had a Christmas tree up, would you still be putting up your own "solsitce tree"?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 18:36:30 GMT -4
You're kidding me, right?
I rather like how many of the earlier traditions were tied to the seasons or to the movements of the sun. I can get behind those kinds of traditions and I've found friends who feel the same. I feel that I'm restoring the true nature of the tradition - a tradition that was nearly destroyed by Christianity.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that some people can have celebrations at this time of year that aren't Christmas celebrations?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 18:48:00 GMT -4
And, again, the point of all this is that not everyone celebrates Christmas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with businesses using "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings," as those phrases don't exclude anyone of any faith or non-faith. That is just good business sense and is not part of a "War on Christmas."
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Post by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on Nov 20, 2007 19:10:23 GMT -4
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 19:13:30 GMT -4
It's not hard for me to believe that other holidays are celebrated at this time of year. It is hard for me to beleive holidays like Hanukkah would be as big a deal as they are if Christmas, one of the really big Christian holidays, if not the biggest, didn't happen to be celebrated in the same month. It is also hard for me to believe that someone who is putting up a decoration indistinguishable from a Christmas Tree has been in no way influenced by all their neighbors putting up Christmas Trees, or their childhood when they were raised with Christmas Trees. You may say "it's entirely pagan" but I would be hard to convince.
I guess I can live with "Happy Holidays" if I must, but re-naming Christmas Trees is too PC for my liking.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 19:34:53 GMT -4
First - it is the Christmas tree that is indistinguishable from the decorated tree of the earlier tradition - not the other way around. Second - what my neighbors do is irrelevant. Third - that I was once a Christian and that I did at one time celebrate Christmas does not in any way shape what I do today.
(It does shape what I don't do, however.)
I completely and unequivocally reject Christianity as a falsehood that has been a disaster for mankind. So when I say my tree is not a Christmas tree, I mean it.
Has anyone asked you to rename your Christmas tree?
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Post by gillianren on Nov 20, 2007 19:35:20 GMT -4
My girlfriend and I are not Christians. We do celebrate some of that Pagan traditions. We have several trees. As non-Christians, are we just being silly to not go ahead and call them "Christmas" trees? I call mine a Christmas tree, actually. I'm a very devout Pagan, but honestly, the reason I have one is about half because I like them and half because it reminds me of the good bits of my family traditions. My mom's Catholic, and there are one or two things left over from that which I still do. That doesn't mean I don't celebrate Yule instead of Christmas; my big celebration is 21 December, and after that, I'm done except for a nice brunch on Christmas morning, which is another leftover tradition. Maybe so, and Gods know there are other cultures that don't use that dating system. However, I think to call it "CE" and "BCE" is another historical lie. The simple fact is, we are dating on a Christian basis, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. Besides, the other thing that really bothers me--and should, I think, bother you as well!--is the unstated assumption in the renaming that the "Common Era" dates to, well, four years after the birth of Jesus because the calendar's numbered wrong. Regardless, I have friends who celebrate just about every December religious holiday. Why should my friend Jasmeen, who's Muslim, be greeted with "Merry Christmas"? Why should I? I don't expect the greeters at Wal-Mart (not that I shop there) to wish everyone a blessed Yule (a word that's Pagan in origin and denoted the Solstice before it denoted Christmas); that's a peculiarly Christian arrogance. Not even all Christians. Just the kind who don't have the good sense to keep their religion to themselves.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 19:47:04 GMT -4
Don't look now Gillian, but we're actually agreeing on some things here.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 20:07:33 GMT -4
I'd argue that to use AD gives credence to a falsehood. The calender may have a Christian origin, but the origin date of the calender does not.
I'd also note that in this thread, we have the argument that even though Christianity adopted the decorated fir tree from an earlier tradition, it should be called a Christmas tree - even by those who celebrate the earlier tradition. Juxtaposed, we have the argument that the calendar has a Christian origin - and even though many more non-Christians than Christians now use that calender, it should retain it's Christian denotation.
By "the calender has a Christian origin" I mean that the calender was devised by Christians - not that it denotes a beginning date with actual relevance.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 20, 2007 20:41:59 GMT -4
I call it a Christmas tree not because I'm disputing its Pagan origin, but because I'm in the habit and have been all my life. Its origin is indeed Pagan, and saying otherwise is pure ignorance, willful or otherwise. (I do think that, even had the catalogue not called it such in error, "family trees" is a ridiculous name.)
As to the origin of the calendar, however, "CE" is a lie. There are people in the world who use the Christian calendar who weren't encountered by Western European civilization for over a thousand years after the calendar was created, let alone the date it's supposed to be based on. How, then, is it a Common Era? Or, if you prefer "Current Era" for what the "C" stands for, what defines it as the Current Era as opposed to "Before Current Era"? Neither of those abbreviations does anything to alleviate the Christocentric nature of the naming system, so if you're going to rename the calendar, rename it something else. Again, Dionysus Exiguus got the date wrong. However, it was intended to represent the birth of Jesus, whether you believe he lived or not.
You have to understand that historical lies are a pet peeve of mine. Changing history because you don't like it is always wrong. Changing it based on new facts, of course, is different.
Which does relate back to the current discussion. We are, as a culture, celebrating the Birth of Mithras, the Birth of the Sun. We call it the birth of Jesus, but we're wrong. We attribute many, many traditions to Christian origins that we shouldn't, because they don't have Christian origins. Apparently, there are even people ignorant enough to believe that everyone celebrates Christmas even if they call it celebrating other holidays.
I cannot claim to have completely shed my Catholic background; I am the product of my own past. And certainly those traditions we share, we Pagans, with the Christians have been coloured by their Christian association. Holly and mistletoe were sacred to Pagans and coopted by the Catholics in order to win converts. Red has always been for blood, and blood has always had its sacred associations. Old gods, as Terry Pratchett so succinctly put it, do new jobs. Let the Christians celebrate as they will, but keep the history in your mind. Gods know it's better than some of them will do.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 21:22:59 GMT -4
I get where you are coming from. I just think most people wouldn't find much to get worked up about with "Common Era." I think it is an honest attempt to find an acceptable substitute for AD. I wouldn't really call CE a lie - and I wouldn't call AD a lie, either -- just a falsehood.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 20, 2007 21:44:22 GMT -4
Which does relate back to the current discussion. We are, as a culture, celebrating the Birth of Mithras, the Birth of the Sun. We call it the birth of Jesus, but we're wrong. Like I said earlier, if you celebrate your birthday on a date other than your birthday, are you "really" celebrating someone else's birthday? Do those presents your family gives you actually belong to someone else because you used the wrong date?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 20, 2007 22:37:30 GMT -4
I don't doubt that Christians sincerely believe they are celebrating the birth of Jesus, so it doesn't matter on which date the celebration happens.
But (you knew there'd be one), most Christians don't know that its not Jesus' birthday. Most Christians are unaware of how many of the "Christmas" traditions are merely traditions that Christianity stole to make their religion more palatable to Pagans and followers of other religions.
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Post by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on Nov 20, 2007 22:43:21 GMT -4
Normally you wouldn't use an abbreviation anyway. This is the year 2007, because that is what we choose to call it. It is a convention.
For historical dates I use the terms Gregorian and Julian. More accurate.
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Post by Ginnie on Nov 20, 2007 22:57:30 GMT -4
Boy oh boy. Arguing over Christmas?
As to the origin of the calendar, however, "CE" is a lie. Could you explain exactly how so? It's just a way to find events in history isn't it? There are many dating systems in the world, people can use whichever one they want, but you should use one that people you are communicating with can understand. Is August a lie because its named after Augustus? Or Thursday after Thor? Or July after Julius Caesar? Is our time system (seconds, minutes...) a lie because its based on a Babylonian numbering system using Base 60? Is Roman text a lie? Or the Arabic numbering system? Or the Indian zero? Everything has roots: some persist for a long time, some don't. Some transform into something entirely different. Sometimes things are adopted by other cultures and change. Some things are convenient and are used for communication. Is English the easiest language to learn? But its becoming the language of the world. Should the world purposely reject English as the main language of communications in the world today because of its European roots? Should we change the word English into something else so that it has no Anglo-Saxon connections?
I'm not sure what I just typed, but you all know me by now. ;D
As for Christmas: It's lost its meaning almost entirely in Western Culture. Basically it means two things: Holidays and Gifts.
I certainly don't object in calling it Christmas. Or having a Christmas tree with a manger. Or saying "merry Christmas". It just doesn't mean what it used to mean to most people.
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