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Post by lionking on Nov 26, 2007 14:15:47 GMT -4
I would remember what I did and wouldn't speak to them. unlike Musgrave Iwould touch th e rocks and say: I used to like this rock - to speak to it. I even didn't Pray to it btw , expecting them to answer me... Iguess everyone has his own ideas after all, and has th eright to think whatever he wants. even musgrave, he can think we are too serious and stupid not to do these things. I can' t change what you and the others here think. I can only try, as you can try, as Musgrave can try..
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 26, 2007 14:30:06 GMT -4
same as you...
No, not the same as me: I don't beg the question. I give reasons. You just lament that people don't agree with you while you repeat your opinions over and over.
the second article proves that he was trying to contact aliens telepathetically.
No, the second article states explicitly that he doesn't intend his actions to have any practical effect, and that it's done for his own sense of well-being. Something that is explicitly not intended to have a practical effect cannot simultaneously be a genuine attempt. You're simply trying to infer a motivation that Musgrave has explicitly denied.
As a scientific, intelligent man, he is supposed to prove the intangible exists, or at least not stop at mysterious things in that manner.
Utter, complete hogwash. You are frantically trying to style this behavior as something Musgrave intends as a scientific activity, or a substitute for scientific activity -- simply so you can continue to beat him with your Weirdo appellation. No one is buying it.
There is no "rule" that says scientists or scientific-minded people must behave scientifically at all times and in all circumstances. There are plenty of occasions when proper human behavior demands illogic. And there are plenty of occasions when one does seemingly irrational things simply because it harmlessly engenders good feelings. You seem to think that the scientific profession is some sort of mystical priesthood to which one gives heart, soul, and mind to, requiring the exclusion of all else. You're inventing a cartoon version of Musgrave's lifestyle that oversimplifies what he -- like most people -- actually thinks and does.
Saying that he doesn't expect and it is nearly around zero that they will reply doesn't mean that he lost hope.
You're trying to wedge a huge claim into nothing more than an inductive leap. No one who uses statistical probability on a regular basis speaks of absolute zero probability. Even the absurdly impossible still has a non-zero probability attached to it.
Again, you're grasping at inferential straws to support an interpretation that Musgrave has explicitly and plainly denied.
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 26, 2007 14:46:42 GMT -4
I guess everyone has his own ideas after all, and has th eright to think whatever he wants. even musgrave, he can think we are too serious and stupid not to do these things.
No, I think he would just like us to respect his description of the difference between things he does for himself as a human being, and other things he does as a scientist and technicial.
Musgrave immersed himself for decades in one of the most ruthlessly demanding and technically-oriented professions of our time. You cannot be successful for those decades in that environment without taking an unflinching approach to science, logic, and reason. To call him unscientific is like calling the Dalai Lama a slacker.
So when he says he sends out telepathic messages wondering whether aliens will receive them, it's natural for him to reconcile that with his public image by saying it's for his benefit only and that he doesn't expect it to be interpreted as an actual attempt to communicate.
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Post by lionking on Nov 26, 2007 14:59:18 GMT -4
not at all. I am giving reasons and diving in what he said, not just reiterating things without support.
you are not getting what I am trying to say or you ar eintentionally doing so. Explicitly, nearly zero expectation is not zero. Praying was done and sign was awaited, even if nearly zero, he still has hope, which enters this into religion.
again, this is a self-excitement feeling that is harmless that would have been O.K if not believed in and prayed to in a religious manner. No, you can't compare irrationality in such age to other irrational acts done by teenagers or children. also, you can't compare such irrationality to drinking alcohol and getting enjoyment just for the fun of it (althaugh it is also stupid to me if someone goes beyong a certain age). you can't compare minds of the illterate, uneducated, different aged pl to others of education and old age. Once more, Musgrave is free to do that, and it is mysterious how he does a stupid act to me. Scientific people do act in some weird manner, like the before mentioned scientist who photographs whatever he eats. I am saying that this ca be bcz they get very concerned with science that they loose contact - or enough contact with people which make them act irrationally some times. , but here is a problem for them. it is "not normal"
well, this is absurdly impossible as you say. Believing in the absurdly impossible is not rational for such a man. praying for the absurdly impossible , with a first step of believing in it, is not O.K to me, but maybe it is to him...
anyways, I would have hoped to ask Musgrave himself if he thinks what he did is O.K to him or if he gets back to it it would seem irrational and not worth of a man like him.
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Post by lionking on Nov 26, 2007 15:05:42 GMT -4
I don't want to disrespect him as a person. I understand what he did for science and he seems charming and interesting according to sts60. It is just ccritiquing something that he did . wh ycan't you tolerate any criticism? That act , in particular, wasn't rational to me. It doesn't mean that in general he is not a rational person.
Asfor him denying that it was an actaual attempt to communicate, I recognize that it is a step towards rationality in what he did, but not that he didn't attempt from the beginning to communicate with them. hto me, he attempted to communicate, althaugh knowing that it is highly unlikely to do be successful. I can't imagine believing as a first step, then focusing on aliens, then sending telepathy signals , ... all these efforts without any single expectation in the first place to recieve something. then, he woke up and got back to rationality, as should be.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 26, 2007 15:08:21 GMT -4
I think not accepting the evidence of Apollo is weird. You do not. I think not doing research into the authenticity of any conspiracy before accepting it is weird; you didn't know that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a well-known hoax until you were told it. So to me, a lot of what you do is weird. You, naturally, will assume I am wrong. That is because we are different people with different standards.
The simple fact is, he has just as much evidence of aliens as I do of my Goddess or my mother does of her God, and there's a lot more logical reason to assume that there's aliens.
Incidentally, for the curious, the phrase "so help me God" is not actually part of the Presidential oath of office. George Washington added it, and every President since has followed his example.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Nov 26, 2007 15:40:13 GMT -4
Lionking, that clinking noise you hear, it's the shovel you're using hitting bedrock, isn't it time you stopped digging your hole?
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Post by echnaton on Nov 26, 2007 15:50:43 GMT -4
Either that or bring out the jack hammer.
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 26, 2007 20:00:19 GMT -4
not at all. I am giving reasons and diving in what he said, not just reiterating things without support.
Hogwash. Your "reasons" are simply your waning attempts at trying to pin your preconceived opinion on Musgrave, no matter how poorly they fit. Incessantly begging the question does not count as a reason.
Explicitly, nearly zero expectation is not zero.
Asked and answered.
Believing in the absurdly impossible is not rational for such a man.
Knee-jerk. Musgrave's estimate of absurdly low probability is precisely his argument that his meditations are not the bona fide communication attempt you insist it was. The whole point is that Musgrave does not believe in the absurdly impossible. You are the one waving your hands in the other direction.
I'm finished talking to you. You are beyond reason.
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Post by Tanalia on Nov 26, 2007 23:27:12 GMT -4
Personally, I think it's extremely weird that a person that otherwise seems intelligent and reasonably well versed in English can't spell out the word because.
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Post by RAF on Nov 27, 2007 10:30:56 GMT -4
I would have hoped to ask Musgrave himself if he thinks what he did is O.K to him or if he gets back to it it would seem irrational and not worth of a man like him. You don't seem to be "getting it". The only way that Musgrave would appear to be irrational is if he claimed that the aliens had actually answered him. Can you cite where he has said that the aliens answered him? No...you can't. Other than that, I agree with others who have said that the hole you're digging for yourself seems to have no end...
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