Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 12, 2008 17:45:39 GMT -4
Appologies Jason, I was serious in my opinion but I tend to make light of theistic subjects as a defence mechanism due to my serious fear of just, well not existing anymore. I would, as wdmundt, be very interested in your answer. No apology necessary. Like I said, I wasn't really offended so much as I was wondering how others might take it. I'm finding it difficult to write out my position myself, despite the fact that I'm sure I've laid most of it out before in earlier threads on this forum.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 12, 2008 18:58:27 GMT -4
Like other Christian churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of which I am a member, believes that there are three personages who can be called God - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. Where we differ from other churches is in our belief of the relationship these three have to each other and to us. We do not believe these three are the same being, but that they are three seperate beings who together comprise one Godhead, in much the same way that the three leaders of the LDS church (all of whom are addressed as "President") together make up one Presidency. Though they are three seperate beings their wills are in harmony with one another, and each acts in perfect concert with the others. As I understand it this is because each has a divine (omniscient) level of knowledge about the universe and therefore they all see the proper path that must be taken with perfect clarity. What God the Father would do in a specific set of circumstances is exactly what Jesus will do in the same circumstances, because each will perfectly understand the situation and see the best, most correct action to take. When the Bible or other scripture speaks of these three as being One, it refers to this oneness of knowledge, will, and purpose, not a oneness of being or substance (most notable in the Bible is that Jesus prayed for his followers to become one with him even as he was one with the father - one in purpose and desire, not one in being).
Though we recognize that there are (at least) three beings that can be described as Gods with a capital G, it is inaccurate to say we are polytheists, because we only view one of them as the proper subject of worship. God the Father is the being church members worship, but all worship is done through Jesus Christ, the redeemer of mankind and our mediator with the Father. For example, LDS prayers are addressed to God the Father (typically addressed as "Heavenly Father") and close with the words "in the name of Jesus Christ (Amen)". The intent of that phrase is to recognize Jesus' special role as mediator between us and the Father, and that it is only through his sacrifice that we can approach the Father in the first place.
So as you see, if I have explaiend this clearly enough, it would be inaccurate for me to say Jesus was God. He was and is a God, but he is not the same person most people (including myself) mean when they talk about God.
This division between LDS doctrine and that of other Christian churches, by the way, is the primary reason for some of them to maintain that we are not Christians, or that we worship a "different Jesus" than they do.
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 12, 2008 19:34:18 GMT -4
I've never completely understood the RC Holy Trinity relationship. It took many years of arguments and reasoning before the Universal Church could state exactly what it meant, and even then it is still confusing. I actually like your version better, though of course I do not believe in it.
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Jason
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May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 12, 2008 19:42:12 GMT -4
I've never completely understood the RC Holy Trinity relationship. It took many years of arguments and reasoning before the Universal Church could state exactly what it meant, and even then it is still confusing. As far as I understand the Trinity doctrine it seems to be an intentional logical contradiction, basically another way of saying "God is incomprehensible". Personally I think it's impossible to truly love or trust something that's incomprehensible by its very nature. I tend to find, however, that despite the creeds and the official doctrines what many Christians actually believe is something closer to the LDS view. It's a difficult subject to write on because it depends on God having revealed His nature to us - it's not something that could have been intuitively derived without His aid.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 12, 2008 22:23:26 GMT -4
I have to agree with Jason that without seeing it, it's very hard to categorize the issue simply. I see the triune Godhead as 3 entities, 1 mind, 1 being.
In the OT we see several manifestations of God, including where God takes a physical form (speaking with Moses on the Mountain, wreastling with Jacob, walking past Elijah and so forth) this I would take to be the pre-incarnated Christ. John tells us that "in the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." also we read from Paul that "nothing was created but through him who is Christ Jesus." These passages tell us that Jesus was with God at the very beginning, was not a created being, but in fact is God, yet clearly though he is God, there is a distincition between him, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself stated that "Who has seen me has seen the Father." Which again leads us to the understanding that the three are of one being, that they speak with one voice and are of a single mind. That Jesus had the Holy Spirit fall on him and a voice speak out at his baptism certainly leads to further evidence of the three being separate entities as well, so in the end scripturely the three as one is very well established in both testements, even if it isn't explained in detail.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 12, 2008 23:10:51 GMT -4
It's been a while since I read Genesis, I admit, but isn't it an angel that wrestles with Jacob?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 12, 2008 23:46:25 GMT -4
The whole Jacob wrestling all night incident is actually pretty strange. I think the common interpretation is that it was an Angel he was wrestling with, but he named the place Peniel, which means the face of God, and says that he saw God face to face there.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 13, 2008 1:27:30 GMT -4
I think the actual question intended is "Was Jesus divine?" This gets around all the various permutations of the Trinity.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 13, 2008 1:29:55 GMT -4
It's been a while since I read Genesis, I admit, but isn't it an angel that wrestles with Jacob? The text says "a man" but also says "You have struggled with God and men" and the name Israel means "Streuggles with God." Jacob also says "I saw God face to face..." There is also the being iften called The Angel of the Lord, a being that is often interchangable with God. Unlike other angels, this one never prevents people falling down in worship and the text often switches to "God" rather then "Angel of God." The clasic here is Moses and the Burning Bush where the text says that "The Angel of the Lord appeared to him from the flames of a fire burning within a bush." It then goes on to say "When the Lord saw that he had gone over to the bush, God called to him from within the bush." It is also possible that the being that met with Josuha and identified himself as the Commander of the Lord's army was also Christ as, like with Moses, Josuha was told to to remove his shoes becaise he was standing on holy ground and not prevented from bowing before the man. Gideon also met the Angel of the Lord and again the text interchanged Angel of the Lord and Lord (and Angel of God). After their meeting when the Angel vanished Gideon feared he would die because of seeing the Angel of the Lord, but he was told that he would not. This seems to indicate that Gideon believed that the Angel of the Lord and God were on and the same as seeing God face to face was believed to result in death. There are plenty of other times that it seems that Jesus in his pre-incarnate form appeared to people in the old Testement including Abraham and Sarah.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 13, 2008 12:00:16 GMT -4
The LDS position is that Jesus was Jehovah before his mortal existence. So it was actually Jesus who dealt with Moses and other Old Testament prophets, and it was Jesus who was the God of Israel. Jesus has been the mediator between God the Father and mankind since the Garden of Eden. And even before then it was Jesus who performed the actual creation of the world, under the Father's direction (as John tells us). In fact, the only times God the Father has spoken directly with mankind since the Fall, it has been to introduce his Son as the proper intermediator (as at Jesus' baptism).
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 13, 2008 12:01:04 GMT -4
I think the actual question intended is "Was Jesus divine?" This gets around all the various permutations of the Trinity. I would have answered "yes" to that question too.
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 13, 2008 16:42:17 GMT -4
I think the actual question intended is "Was Jesus divine?" This gets around all the various permutations of the Trinity. I would have answered "yes" to that question too. How would you define divine? Godlike? Supernatural Being? A God? Semi-God? diĀ·vine 1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being. 2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship. 3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws. 4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 13, 2008 17:28:40 GMT -4
How would you define divine? Godlike? No. In this case He's not just Godlike, he is literally a God. No. Supernatural would mean breaking the normal laws of physics. God doesn't break physical laws, he just has ways of using them that we don't yet understand. Yes. No. From one perspective, Jesus was half-divine during his mortal life, and could have been described as a "Semi-God" at that time, but that is not his current status.
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Post by RAF on Feb 13, 2008 20:48:02 GMT -4
Supernatural would mean breaking the normal laws of physics. God doesn't break physical laws, he just has ways of using them that we don't yet understand. Your description sounds like that of a con artist who preys on the gullable using "physics tricks".
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 13, 2008 22:37:03 GMT -4
Your description sounds like that of a con artist who preys on the gullable using "physics tricks". I don't think so. What Jason was getting at is that what we'd likely call a supernatural act is merely an understanding and use of the universes laws beyond which we can understand. Take this for an example. You have a room with concrete walls, floor and ceiling. The only way in is a locked and bolted metal door. Inside is a table and on the table is an object. Without opening the door, or damaging the concrete a man enters the room and retrieves the object. Sounds supernatural right? However think about this. What if there is a fourth dimention that exists for that man? To him the room is not enclosed in walls, but has gaps in it that he can walk through, retrieve the object from the table and return back through the empty spaces. For him, no physical law has been broken, but what was done is outside of our understanding and would appear to be Supernatrual. In the same way, Jason is saying that God used physics in ways we can't yet comprehend, that His understanding of the way the Universe works is total and so he can do things we can't, and that we'd consider supernatural.
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