Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 6, 2008 13:24:15 GMT -4
So... McCain was wrong, then? I would say that with regards to WMDs in Iraq that he was no more wrong than everyone else was, so it's excusable. It would be great if he had somehow divined that Saddam was fooling nearly everyone (including many of his own generals) into thinking he had WMDs when he didn't, but nobody's perfect. In my book McCain gets a pass on this.
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 13:26:17 GMT -4
That seems to be an opinion piece. So what?
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 13:54:44 GMT -4
April 2008:
A McCain fund-raising letter attacks Obama for his refusal "to condemn” former President Jimmy Carter for holding talks with Hamas leaders.
From 2006:
JAMES RUBIN (Sky News): "Do you think that American diplomats should be operating the way they have in the past, working with the Palestinian government if Hamas is now in charge?"
JOHN McCAIN: "They're the government; sooner or later we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy towards Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things that they not only espouse but practice, so . . . but it's a new reality in the Middle East. I think the lesson is people want security and a decent life and decent future, that they want democracy. Fatah was not giving them that."
Hypocrite?
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 6, 2008 14:19:33 GMT -4
As an aside, I like your new avatar wdmundt. Destination Moon? Mind if I emulate? My cat hates wearing that mustache anyways...
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 14:55:09 GMT -4
I'll respond on the old "SF spaceship" thread....
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 6, 2008 15:17:14 GMT -4
Not at all. What Jimmy Carter was doing was way out of line. He has no official position in the US government and no authority to deal with Hamas. His actions were a deliberate attempt to undercut the administration's position and were therefore worthy of condemnation. It looks like McCain's position isn't so much "nobody should talk to Hamas" as it is "Jimmy Carter had no right to talk to Hamas."
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 15:24:21 GMT -4
Way out of line? I'm sorry, McCain said "but it's a new reality in the Middle East. I think the lesson is people want security and a decent life and decent future, that they want democracy. Fatah was not giving them that."
Hamas was elected. So how is Carter talking to them "way out of line?"
There is no harm in talking -- and talking can often get a lot more done than can dropping bombs, firing missiles and/or invading.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 6, 2008 15:25:51 GMT -4
That seems to be an opinion piece. So what? Yeah, it's an opinion piece, but it talks about some real developments. Or are you saying there are no facts behind it at all?
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 15:27:31 GMT -4
And again, the point of this thread is "problematic quotes." If McCain wants to attack Obama for being unwilling to condemn talks with Hamas, then this rises to the level of being a "problematic quote."
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 6, 2008 15:39:09 GMT -4
Hamas was elected. So how is Carter talking to them "way out of line?" Jimmy Carter simply cannot visit someone as a private citizen. He's a former president no matter what he does or where he goes. When he goes and talks to the leaders of another country the world can perceive it as the U.S. government using back channels. If the government says "we're not going to deal with them" and then an unofficial representative like a former president shows up to negotiate then the hard stance of isolation is undermined. The harm is in the weakening of a hardline diplomatic stance designed to avoid dropping bombs, firing missiles, etc.
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 15:42:35 GMT -4
"You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." George W. Bush to a divorced mother of three in Omaha, Nebraska.
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 15:45:12 GMT -4
Hamas was elected. So how is Carter talking to them "way out of line?" Jimmy Carter simply cannot visit someone as a private citizen. He's a former president no matter what he does or where he goes. When he goes and talks to the leaders of another country the world can perceive it as the U.S. government using back channels. If the government says "we're not going to deal with them" and then an unofficial representative like a former president shows up to negotiate then the hard stance of isolation is undermined. The harm is in the weakening of a hardline diplomatic stance designed to avoid dropping bombs, firing missiles, etc. Oh, right. And now the whole middle east is just topsy turvy all because Jimmy Careter went over and had a chat. It had nothing to do with us invading Iraq. Invasion; good. Talking to elected governments; bad. Got it.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 6, 2008 15:51:07 GMT -4
If Hamas is so encouraged by Jimmy's visit that they keep up their bad policies instead of changing them under direct pressure from the U.S. then yes, it's bad.
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 6, 2008 16:02:59 GMT -4
Right. If Hamas continues on the same path it has had all along, then it is Jimmy Carter's fault.
Standard crappy logic.
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Post by Retrograde on Jun 6, 2008 16:05:15 GMT -4
Wow, the topic changes, but the conversation is always the same...
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