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Post by gillianren on Apr 30, 2010 23:21:41 GMT -4
You are aware how long that border is, right? How much would you like to spend on policing it?
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Post by archer17 on Apr 30, 2010 23:37:27 GMT -4
You are aware how long that border is, right? How much would you like to spend on policing it? In answer to your first question, yes. In answer to your second, whatever it takes. As far as I'm concerned there's no excuse for allowing anyone to slip across the Mexican border illegally. Do you have any you'd like to share?
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Post by gillianren on May 1, 2010 1:38:29 GMT -4
The fact that there isn't enough money in the federal budget to do that without seriously depleting the money the government has for anything else? There are already plenty of places I feel deserve the money more that we don't put enough money into. Stopping illegal immigration is, frankly, very low on my personal governmental priority list. I'd like more money for schools and health care first. Eliminating illegal immigration entirely is unfeasible--especially because we'd have to close the Canadian border entirely as well, given that said immigrants wouldn't necessarily have to start from Mexico. A lot of the ones crossing that border didn't start there, either.
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Post by PhantomWolf on May 1, 2010 12:18:31 GMT -4
One could point out that with the increases likeihood of terror attacks against the US having places that said terrorists could slip into the country undetected is a bad idea. Thus the solution is to mine the borders.
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Post by LunarOrbit on May 1, 2010 12:21:05 GMT -4
It works for North Korea.
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Post by PhantomWolf on May 1, 2010 12:24:45 GMT -4
It works for North Korea. Exactly, East Germany too, I mean how many of those sneaky West Germans did you see managing to break through the Iron Curtain to join with their brothers in the Communist Utopia?
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Post by archer17 on May 1, 2010 12:42:00 GMT -4
The fact that there isn't enough money in the federal budget to do that without seriously depleting the money the government has for anything else? There are already plenty of places I feel deserve the money more that we don't put enough money into. Stopping illegal immigration is, frankly, very low on my personal governmental priority list. I'd like more money for schools and health care first. Eliminating illegal immigration entirely is unfeasible--especially because we'd have to close the Canadian border entirely as well, given that said immigrants wouldn't necessarily have to start from Mexico. A lot of the ones crossing that border didn't start there, either. You haven't put a lot of thought into this, did you? Then again why bother to wrack your brain if secure borders aren't high on your list of priorities? You actually make a case for why Arizona felt like it had no other recourse but to act unilaterally. After all, if preventing Mexican infiltration is undoable or at the very least too much trouble and too expensive, then they either try to address the problem themselves or, like you do, rationalize inaction by pointing out not all violent crimes/drug smuggling is via the Mexican border. I'm sure that'll help when inaction impacts them directly. Maybe they could tell themselves that folks who are adjacent to Canada do just fine without a secure border. Unsecured borders not only fail to address the illegal immigration problem, it allows infiltration by those that have more than cheap labor in mind. Telling me all drugs and crimes of violence aren't a product of crossing the Rio Grande doesn't negate the fact that it happens. If you follow what's happening in Mexico now you'd know that there is drug-cartel violence on an unprecedented scale, violence that isn't confined to the Mexican side. But that's not the only danger of an unsupervised border. Think committed terrorists are stupid? Give me one good reason why they wouldn't use the easy way to infiltrate into this country if it's there and they have the will and the means to do what they do. And don't tell me that since it hasn't happened yet it likely won't. This country has the technological means to address the border situation. It wouldn't be easy, nor cheap, but it could be done and there's no excuse not to do it. One could point out that with the increases likeihood of terror attacks against the US having places that said terrorists could slip into the country undetected is a bad idea. Thus the solution is to mine the borders. Heh, can you imagine? That would go over like a fart in church.
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Post by gillianren on May 1, 2010 15:19:52 GMT -4
You haven't put a lot of thought into this, did you? Then again why bother to wrack your brain if secure borders aren't high on your list of priorities? You actually make a case for why Arizona felt like it had no other recourse but to act unilaterally. After all, if preventing Mexican infiltration is undoable or at the very least too much trouble and too expensive, then they either try to address the problem themselves or, like you do, rationalize inaction by pointing out not all violent crimes/drug smuggling is via the Mexican border. I'm sure that'll help when inaction impacts them directly. Maybe they could tell themselves that folks who are adjacent to Canada do just fine without a secure border. Undoable. Completely. As is tracking down all illegal immigrants once they're here. You clearly have no idea of the scope of things. Now, that doesn't mean we should throw out the INS, or whatever we're calling it these days, entirely. There are people in this country illegally who are causing problems. And it isn't just that "not all" violent crimes have anything to do with the Mexican border. It is that enormous percentages don't. Drug smuggling is a big problem up on the Canadian border, and most violent crimes in the United States are committed by people born here or else here legally. Yes. And drinking causes problems, and smuggling pot is a huge problem on the border just north of here. And the fact is, if they're that committed, they'll find a way. Like, say, flying in on a visa and staying after it's expired. But what terrorists would do that? Or maybe flying to Canada and sneaking down across the unsecured border into Montana or wherever. No, it doesn't. Technology is only part of the issue. Part of the issue is manpower. (Which is still actually required.) In order to truly secure the border in a way which doesn't make the US look like a totalitarian regime, it's going to take more human resources than we currently have in Afghanistan.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 1, 2010 15:39:04 GMT -4
Stopping illegal immigration is, frankly, very low on my personal governmental priority list. I'd like more money for schools and health care first. Of course, one might point out that illegal immigrants are a drain on our school and health care budgets. Your average illegal immigrant receives their health care through emergency room care, which is then paid for by the government - or us, in other words. And their children are in the public schools as well, using resources that their parents are not paying for because they don't pay taxes. In short, getting illegal immigration under control would be the same as increasing our budget in health care and school. Admittedly, probably not as much as it would cost to guard the borders properly, but we would then be killing two birds with one stone.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on May 1, 2010 19:53:31 GMT -4
Stopping illegal immigration is, frankly, very low on my personal governmental priority list. I'd like more money for schools and health care first. Of course, one might point out that illegal immigrants are a drain on our school and health care budgets. Your average illegal immigrant receives their health care through emergency room care, which is then paid for by the government - or us, in other words. And their children are in the public schools as well, using resources that their parents are not paying for because they don't pay taxes. In short, getting illegal immigration under control would be the same as increasing our budget in health care and school. Admittedly, probably not as much as it would cost to guard the borders properly, but we would then be killing two birds with one stone. Every immigrant, legal or illegal, comes to this country and needs to buy socks, shoes, underwear, a cell phone, work clothes, a dvd player, an alarm clock . . .
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Post by gillianren on May 2, 2010 4:08:38 GMT -4
Every immigrant, legal or illegal, comes to this country and needs to buy socks, shoes, underwear, a cell phone, work clothes, a dvd player, an alarm clock . . . Not to mention that, if they're holding a job on forged documents, they're paying into the tax system. No, the drain illegal immigrants supposedly put on the economy has never actually been demonstrated to be as big a drain as some of the methods proposed to prevent illegal immigration. And the security argument holds a lot less water than some people will tell you, too, given that--again--the 9/11 hijackers didn't come in through Mexico, so there's no real reason to assume the next batch will, either. It is not the easiest way into the country by any stretch.
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Post by Joe Durnavich on May 2, 2010 9:52:54 GMT -4
Telling me all drugs and crimes of violence aren't a product of crossing the Rio Grande doesn't negate the fact that it happens. If you follow what's happening in Mexico now you'd know that there is drug-cartel violence on an unprecedented scale, violence that isn't confined to the Mexican side. From How Immigration Crackdowns Backfire: See also: Immigration and Crime
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 2, 2010 22:43:15 GMT -4
Every immigrant, legal or illegal, comes to this country and needs to buy socks, shoes, underwear, a cell phone, work clothes, a dvd player, an alarm clock . . . If they buy those from a store that pays the sales tax for them, great. That helps a bit. Not as much as paying sales taxes and your income tax too, but it helps.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on May 2, 2010 23:24:04 GMT -4
I don't know of any stores that DON'T "pay the sales tax for them."
Although I will admit that most of the basics listed above are made in China, I think 11 million packs of tighty-whities gotta have some kind of impact on the US economy.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 2, 2010 23:53:23 GMT -4
I don't know of any stores that DON'T "pay the sales tax for them." Of course. But if they don't buy their DVD players (or whatever) in stores then there is no sales tax from the sale. And, of course, different states have different sales tax rates. AND, since sales tax is a state-level thing, it does nothing to offset federal costs.
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