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Post by knoxrox156 on Aug 23, 2008 22:29:34 GMT -4
hi, i am new to this forum (at least this is my first post)
and i really love this entire website. i have used most of the information in youtube videos (my channel is KnoxRox167)
but there is one thing to this moon conspiracy that i cant answer and i havent found it on this website. and i suspect i havent looked hard enough.
i might as well give you the direct comment on my video:
"we aren't capable of going to the moon now...
how did we do it more than 30 years ago?
"Van Allen radiation belt" "
any thoughts?
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Post by grashtel on Aug 23, 2008 22:36:29 GMT -4
"we aren't capable of going to the moon now... how did we do it more than 30 years ago? By building really big rockets to send people there. We don't have any big enough at the moment to do that so we can't go now, if the Ares program stays on track we will be able to go in again sometime next decade. And before anyone mentions it we can't just build more Saturn Vs, the tooling wasn't retained (paying to maintain equipment with no expectation of ever being used again is bad business practice), the people with the skills and experience needed are mostly dead or retired, and entire areas of needed technologies no longer exist because they have been replaced with better stuff (and using the new stuff would change the design to the point where it would be simpler and quicker to start from scratch, or modify existing designs (eg as is being done for the Ares)) |
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Post by knoxrox156 on Aug 23, 2008 22:42:03 GMT -4
thanks!
and i dont know, i might use whatever posts i have in a video.
but how do you think we got past the radiation belt? the first answer for me that comes to mind is that the technology has existed a little bit before the moon landing and that it still does...
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Post by grashtel on Aug 23, 2008 22:55:41 GMT -4
thanks! and i dont know, i might use whatever posts i have in a video. but how do you think we got past the radiation belt? the first answer for me that comes to mind is that the technology has existed a little bit before the moon landing and that it still does... Very easily, the VABs are filled with charged particles that are relatively easy to stop (compared to gamma rays at least). The main shielding for the Apollo CM was its 1.5cm (IIRC) thick aluminum skin, quite sufficient to drop the radiation down to safe levels. The radiation in the VABs is very well known as there are lots of commercial satellites that orbit within them, geostationary orbit is smack in the middle of the outer one and the ISS regularly passes through part of the lower one due to the South Atlantic Anomaly causing the belt to dip down. It would be effectively impossible to cover up them being as nasty as HBs believe they are. Electronics are damaged by radiation just like living things, in fact they are more effected because they aren't able to heal, so satellites would be dying far faster than expected if the published values for the VABs were faked. |
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Post by Data Cable on Aug 23, 2008 22:59:45 GMT -4
The main shielding for the Apollo CM was its 1.5cm (IIRC) thick aluminum skin, quite sufficient to drop the radiation down to safe levels. Furthermore, the trajectory provided only a brief exposure, passing quickly through the thin part of the belt, near the edge. |
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 23, 2008 23:23:10 GMT -4
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Post by Cavorite on Aug 23, 2008 23:34:50 GMT -4
The claim about the radiation belt usually just begins and ends at noting that the belts exist, the assumption being that they are lethal because they contain, you know, radiation. Which is bad.
But that's not enough. Saying "radiation is bad" is like saying "poison is bad" - it might generally be true, but nobody usually assumes that all poisons are equal, that something as mildly poisonous as, say, apricot kernels, should be considered as dangerous as sarin. Questions of type and dosage are critical. This is why questions that on the face of it might seem relevant, like "If the suits could protect them ,why wasn't the same technology used at Chernobyl?" do not bear up to close examination, as the radiation at Chernobyl was of a much more penetrating type and was of far greater intensity than that which was encountered in the belts.
There are published figures on the radiation levels encountered in the belts. They are used to calculate how much shielding satellites that pass through or reside in the belts will need to protect their electronic components, which can be damaged by radiation. If the real figures were at variance with the published ones, we would see satellites frying, which we don't.
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Post by tedward on Aug 24, 2008 5:16:16 GMT -4
I read the primer and the section on clavius and found it very informative. Some (a small some) of it echoed what I already knew but it was the "fuzzy" already knew picked up from the odd book here and documentary there and days spent in various science classes many moons ago.
I wonder how many HB would be concerned that they are being bombarded with microwave radiation every day if they walk out in the open? (deliberately left out levels....)
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Post by nomuse on Aug 24, 2008 5:56:39 GMT -4
I am always amused by the Van Allen Belt argument. In a nutshell; "NASA lied to us and said that they sent astronauts to the Moon! They would have died from the Searing Radiation Hell (tm) of the Van Halen (sic) Belts!" "And where did you learn of these Van Allen Belts?" "From NASA!"
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Post by echnaton on Aug 24, 2008 7:17:01 GMT -4
"we aren't capable of going to the moon now...
how did we do it more than 30 years ago?
Among the great quotes in the movie The Right Stuff is the line, "No bucks, no Buck Rodgers." NASA hasn't had the Buck Rodgers bucks needed to support two operational space platforms (the shuttle and a moon program) and is likely not to have those bucks anytime soon.
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Post by PeterB on Aug 24, 2008 9:40:18 GMT -4
hi, i am new to this forum (at least this is my first post) G'day Knoxrox156, and welcome to the Apollohoax forum. To which I'd respond, we aren't capable of flying across the Atlantic at supersonic speeds now. How did we do it 30 years ago? With a plane which has now been withdrawn from service. Travelling to the Moon was expensive, and once Apollo 11 had landed, people lost interest. They pressed Congress to cut NASA's budget and use the money elsewhere. On top of that, Congress tells NASA how to spend its budget. If your boss gives you a budget of $10,000 with which to conduct training, are you going to use that money to visit your employer's office on the other side of the world? |
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Ian Pearse
Mars
Apollo (and space) enthusiast
Posts: 308
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Post by Ian Pearse on Aug 24, 2008 9:50:34 GMT -4
thanks! and i dont know, i might use whatever posts i have in a video. but how do you think we got past the radiation belt? the first answer for me that comes to mind is that the technology has existed a little bit before the moon landing and that it still does... Very easily, the VABs are filled with charged particles that are relatively easy to stop (compared to gamma rays at least). The main shielding for the Apollo CM was its 1.5cm (IIRC) thick aluminum skin, quite sufficient to drop the radiation down to safe levels. The radiation in the VABs is very well known as there are lots of commercial satellites that orbit within them, geostationary orbit is smack in the middle of the outer one and the ISS regularly passes through part of the lower one due to the South Atlantic Anomaly causing the belt to dip down. It would be effectively impossible to cover up them being as nasty as HBs believe they are. Electronics are damaged by radiation just like living things, in fact they are more effected because they aren't able to heal, so satellites would be dying far faster than expected if the published values for the VABs were faked. Don't forget the use of polyethylene shielding, which is very good at stopping charged particles due to the high content of hydrogen atoms. Such shielding is used on the ISS and is on the cards, IIRC, for the future Moon and Mars projects as part of the total solution. |
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 24, 2008 13:30:32 GMT -4
The radiation argument doesn't make sense because why would NASA try to lie about something that is out of their control? They can't deny that the radiation exists and they can't stop other countries from studying it and discovering the lie. If NASA lied about the radiation then it would only be a matter or time before someone realized it... so why would NASA fake the moon landings if there was something that could so easily give it away?
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Post by Grand Lunar on Aug 24, 2008 15:34:27 GMT -4
The usual counter from conspiracy theorists to NASA being unable to hide a lie about radiation is one of the following;
Not all countries have access to radiation data; they only get it from NASA.
NASA controls ALL space data. (a variation of the above)
NASA has Death SquadsTM to kill those that reveal their lies.
NASA is in partnership with all space faring nations to hide the TruthTM.
No scientist wants to risk his/her life or funding to reveal the TruthTM.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 24, 2008 16:42:12 GMT -4
Don't forget the use of polyethylene shielding, which is very good at stopping charged particles due to the high content of hydrogen atoms. Such shielding is used on the ISS and is on the cards, IIRC, for the future Moon and Mars projects as part of the total solution. Apollo didn't use Polyethylene. The CM walls were quite thick, not just the 1.5 cm of Aluminium on the outside, they had insulation materials and more aluminium in the wall as well. The construction that make it sturdy enough to be dropped from 3 m off the back of a speeding truck (and yes they did do that with them to see how they'd react to a ground landing before switching to water) was also sufficent to shield against the particle radiation of the VA belts. Many people don't really get that there are different types and levels of radiation. The four main types are Alpha (the Neuclus of atoms from Helium upwards), Beta (a single electron) Heavy Particle (Proton or Neutron), and Gamma (High energy electro-magnetic waves, photons). Different steps need to be taken for each type. Alpha can be stopped by nothing more that a sheet of standard paper. Protrons can be stopped by a few centimeters of wood. Beta takes a bit more, a centimetre or two of low density metal or better about 20-50cm of a high density polymer or water. Gamma is the worse and requires metres of dense metal such as lead. The VA Belts consist of Beta, high energy electrons and protons. These would have been for the most part stopped by the spaceship's hull. What would got through to the crew was about the same exposure you get standing on the Earth's surface for an entire year, that sounds a lot to have been exposed to in just a few hours, but in reality, the crew with the highest reading was 14 with 47.5 times the Earth background amount (2.4 millisievert.) Still that is actually still nowhere near a fatal dose, at most it raises the risk of long term cancer, and all the other crews were at least half or less of 14's exposure. (it should be noted here that Apollo 14 Commander Alan Shepard died of Leukemia in 1998.) |
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