Post by Jason on Sept 11, 2008 16:13:53 GMT -4
It has been a common crticiism on this forum that the evidence for the historicity of Jesus is less than would be expected for such an important religious figure and therefore unconvincing. My contention has been that the amount of evidence that is available is reasonable, given the conditions of Jesus' time and the time span between the 1st century and today.
To illustrate this idea, I will atttempt to show that evidence for the historicity of Socrates, a notable figure in Western Philosophy, is comparable to that which exists for the historicity of Jesus.
Socrates was reportedly born in Athens around 470 BC (we have no exact year), lived in that city almost his entire life, became a noted philosopher, and was executed by the government of Athens around 399 BC at 70 years old.
Jesus Christ was reportedly born in Bethlehem between 3 and 7 BC, lived in Nazareth most of his life, became a noted religious figure at age 30 and traveled throughout a good portion of the Kingdom of Judea, and was executed by the ruling Roman government in AD 33 at 33 years old.
A first impression might be that Socrates had much more time to make his mark on his students and the society around him. Jesus was reportedly active as a preacher for only 3 years, while Socrates spent most of his adult life as a philosopher in the public eye. One could assume that it is therefore more likely that we shall find lasting evidence of Socrates' existence.
We should also keep in mind, however, that any evidence Socrates left is an additional 400 years in the past when compared to evidence for Jesus, and therefore has had that much longer to disappear.
Neither Jesus nor Socrates left any writings claimed to be written by them personally. Our only accounts of their words and deeds are from second-hand sources.
In Jesus' case this is primarily the authors of the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. Although these are all claimed to be contemporaries with Jesus, not all of them met Jesus in life (Paul in particular makes it clear he did not). Other contemporaries mention people from the New Testament, such as Herod the Great, Herod Agrippa, Pontius Pilate, Caiaphus (the high priest), and Annas (the high priest Caiaphus replaced, who was still an influental leader, and Caiaphus' father-in-law), but they only mention Jesus after his execution, usually in connection with the Christian movement. This is, again, not too surprising considering that Jesus was only an active preacher for three years.
Socrates is known primarily from the works of three authors - Plato, Aristophanes, and Xenophon. Aristophanes' work is satirical rather than biographical, and can't really be viewed as an accurate portrait of a real person. Plato and Xenophon use Socrates as an interlocutor in their philosophical writings, and they also give some biographical details. All three were contemporaries of Socrates, but Plato and Xenophon produced their work after his death.
In both cases, other accounts immediately after these sources treat the person they describe as having been a real person. Historians of the 1st and 2nd century don't question the historicity of Jesus when mentioning Christians, despite many of those accounts being virulently anti-Christian, and Athenians of the 4th and 3rd centuries BC seem to acknowledge that Socrates was a real person. Aristotle, a student of Plato, mentions Socrates, and a man named Aechines mentions Socrates' execution in a speech less than 50 years after the event.
None of the written accounts which give details of the life of Jesus or Socrates were written as historical texts. In Jesus' case they are religious, in Socrates' they are philosophical or dramatic.
They are also, except in the case of Aristophanes' plays, written by disciples of the person in question. All of the authors of the New Testament view Jesus as at least a prophet of God if not God himself. Plato and Xenophon both claim to have been students of Socrates, and they viewed his execution as a great injustice.
The accounts of either individual include supernatural events. The New Testament obviously contains accounts of miracles and the resurrection. Plato's accounts of Socrates include the Oracle at Delphi saying that none was wiser than he, and an inner voice Socrates only heard when he was about to make a mistake, which he called his "daemonic sign", as well as discussions on reincarnation and the mystery religions.
There are no artifacts directly associated with Socrates that have been preserved to this day. There are many artifacts associated with Jesus, but all are of questionable authenticity.
Socrates' burial site, if he had one, is unknown. Jesus' reported burial site is the site of a church.
That should be a good starting point.
To illustrate this idea, I will atttempt to show that evidence for the historicity of Socrates, a notable figure in Western Philosophy, is comparable to that which exists for the historicity of Jesus.
Socrates was reportedly born in Athens around 470 BC (we have no exact year), lived in that city almost his entire life, became a noted philosopher, and was executed by the government of Athens around 399 BC at 70 years old.
Jesus Christ was reportedly born in Bethlehem between 3 and 7 BC, lived in Nazareth most of his life, became a noted religious figure at age 30 and traveled throughout a good portion of the Kingdom of Judea, and was executed by the ruling Roman government in AD 33 at 33 years old.
A first impression might be that Socrates had much more time to make his mark on his students and the society around him. Jesus was reportedly active as a preacher for only 3 years, while Socrates spent most of his adult life as a philosopher in the public eye. One could assume that it is therefore more likely that we shall find lasting evidence of Socrates' existence.
We should also keep in mind, however, that any evidence Socrates left is an additional 400 years in the past when compared to evidence for Jesus, and therefore has had that much longer to disappear.
Neither Jesus nor Socrates left any writings claimed to be written by them personally. Our only accounts of their words and deeds are from second-hand sources.
In Jesus' case this is primarily the authors of the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. Although these are all claimed to be contemporaries with Jesus, not all of them met Jesus in life (Paul in particular makes it clear he did not). Other contemporaries mention people from the New Testament, such as Herod the Great, Herod Agrippa, Pontius Pilate, Caiaphus (the high priest), and Annas (the high priest Caiaphus replaced, who was still an influental leader, and Caiaphus' father-in-law), but they only mention Jesus after his execution, usually in connection with the Christian movement. This is, again, not too surprising considering that Jesus was only an active preacher for three years.
Socrates is known primarily from the works of three authors - Plato, Aristophanes, and Xenophon. Aristophanes' work is satirical rather than biographical, and can't really be viewed as an accurate portrait of a real person. Plato and Xenophon use Socrates as an interlocutor in their philosophical writings, and they also give some biographical details. All three were contemporaries of Socrates, but Plato and Xenophon produced their work after his death.
In both cases, other accounts immediately after these sources treat the person they describe as having been a real person. Historians of the 1st and 2nd century don't question the historicity of Jesus when mentioning Christians, despite many of those accounts being virulently anti-Christian, and Athenians of the 4th and 3rd centuries BC seem to acknowledge that Socrates was a real person. Aristotle, a student of Plato, mentions Socrates, and a man named Aechines mentions Socrates' execution in a speech less than 50 years after the event.
None of the written accounts which give details of the life of Jesus or Socrates were written as historical texts. In Jesus' case they are religious, in Socrates' they are philosophical or dramatic.
They are also, except in the case of Aristophanes' plays, written by disciples of the person in question. All of the authors of the New Testament view Jesus as at least a prophet of God if not God himself. Plato and Xenophon both claim to have been students of Socrates, and they viewed his execution as a great injustice.
The accounts of either individual include supernatural events. The New Testament obviously contains accounts of miracles and the resurrection. Plato's accounts of Socrates include the Oracle at Delphi saying that none was wiser than he, and an inner voice Socrates only heard when he was about to make a mistake, which he called his "daemonic sign", as well as discussions on reincarnation and the mystery religions.
There are no artifacts directly associated with Socrates that have been preserved to this day. There are many artifacts associated with Jesus, but all are of questionable authenticity.
Socrates' burial site, if he had one, is unknown. Jesus' reported burial site is the site of a church.
That should be a good starting point.