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Post by gillianren on Jan 20, 2009 15:18:15 GMT -4
I'm classically trained, myself, and have admired both men for years. I've also been fond of that piece for years. It's a Shaker melody dating from 1848. I, personally, played it as part of Copland's "Appalachian Spring" when I was in high school. I thought it was an excellent choice, not least because it represents so much of the American folk tradition.
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Post by RAF on Jan 20, 2009 17:29:27 GMT -4
...criticism about Obama's miscount of the states is just as grounded in fact and just as significant as Gillian's criticisms of Bush. Obama miscounting states vs. Bush torturing the "detainees". Somehow one seems a tad more "significant" than the other. Bush is a war criminal. Only the delusional would deny that.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 20, 2009 17:59:15 GMT -4
...criticism about Obama's miscount of the states is just as grounded in fact and just as significant as Gillian's criticisms of Bush. Obama miscounting states vs. Bush torturing the "detainees". Did you read the post by Gillian on this thread that I am referring to? She's talking about stupid nicknames and unwanted backrubs there, not torture. Or claim it, one or the other. You do know that Obama is keeping on Bush's Defense Secretary, right? Does that make the new President delusional?
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Post by RAF on Jan 20, 2009 18:40:52 GMT -4
She's talking about stupid nicknames and unwanted backrubs there, not torture. Well, I'm talking about torture. Simply saying "it wasn't torture" over and over won't make it go away. So keeping Bush's defense sec. makes Obama guilty of torture? That's quite a "stretch" even for you.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 20, 2009 18:54:11 GMT -4
Blame President Bush for any incidents of torture or war crimes in the last two years and you are also effectively blaming Robert Gates, the man who carried out Bush's war policies as Secretary of Defense for the last two years. If Bush is a war criminal, then so is Gates (the "I was following orders" defense never works).
President Obama has decided to keep Gates in place. Therefore he does not consider Gates a war criminal, and by extension President Bush. Therefore by your argument he is delusional.
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Post by RAF on Jan 20, 2009 19:26:13 GMT -4
President Obama has decided to keep Gates in place. Therefore he does not consider Gates a war criminal, and by extension President Bush. Where did I say anything about Obama's opinions re. torture?...and why would it matter what anyone's opinion was/is?? Bush is guilty of torture because he DID TORTURE. This is not an opinion or speculation but the simple, undeniable truth.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 21, 2009 11:46:46 GMT -4
Where did I say anything about Obama's opinions re. torture?...and why would it matter what anyone's opinion was/is?? Bush is guilty of torture because he DID TORTURE. This is not an opinion or speculation but the simple, undeniable truth. You said anyone who thinks President Bush is not a war criminal is delusional. President Obama has shown by his retention of Bush's Defense Secretary - the very person who would have carried out any of Bush's policies that would be considered war crimes - that he does not consider Bush a war criminal. Therefore by your argument President Obama is delusional. When did you say anything about Obama's opinions? You spoke disparagingly of President Obama's mental state by implication. In fact, with your latest post you are accusing him of denying undeniable truths.
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Post by RAF on Jan 21, 2009 13:09:33 GMT -4
Where did I say anything about Obama's opinions re. torture?...and why would it matter what anyone's opinion was/is?? Bush is guilty of torture because he DID TORTURE. This is not an opinion or speculation but the simple, undeniable truth. You said anyone who thinks President Bush is not a war criminal is delusional. President Obama has shown by his retention of Bush's Defense Secretary - the very person who would have carried out any of Bush's policies that would be considered war crimes - that he does not consider Bush a war criminal. Therefore by your argument President Obama is delusional. When did you say anything about Obama's opinions? You spoke disparagingly of President Obama's mental state by implication. In fact, with your latest post you are accusing him of denying undeniable truths. Boy you sure "caught" me there. In a way, I agree with you. I sincerely believe that Obama doesn't have the "cohones" to prosecute Bush meaning that he will in all likelihood "get away" with it. Thing is that your post completely ignores the fact that Bush is a war criminal for torturing the "detainees". Attempted distractions won't make that "go away".
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 21, 2009 13:13:14 GMT -4
Boy you sure "caught" me there. In a way, I agree with you. Chalk up another win for me then. Yay me! ;D
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Post by RAF on Jan 21, 2009 13:26:12 GMT -4
Yes...I admit that there are delusional people in the world.
This is the 2nd time you've completely ignored the "crux" of my post.
Is that how you "win" arguments?...by ignoring that which you have no answer for??
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Post by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on Jan 21, 2009 14:08:48 GMT -4
Sometimes Jason becomes his own parody.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 21, 2009 14:39:38 GMT -4
Sometimes Jason becomes his own parody. You just have to sit back and laugh at yourself sometimes.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 21, 2009 14:43:55 GMT -4
I think "What should be considered torture?" might be a productive thread topic, by the way. Although I'm not sure I will contribute much to it.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Jan 21, 2009 15:44:41 GMT -4
As a test subject? ;D
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Post by echnaton on Jan 21, 2009 16:11:23 GMT -4
I think "What should be considered torture?" might be a productive thread topic
It sounds self fulfilling to me. Just the thought of reading a thread with that topic is painful.
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