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Post by craiglamson on Jan 24, 2009 10:31:26 GMT -4
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 24, 2009 13:31:41 GMT -4
Nice try, but that is not what you said. You STRONGLY implied that Obama sighed the order with the intention of it being "loopholed" later. Sorry to shout, but YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT. Why is it impossible for you to understand that?? So you think the loophole is unintentional? Seems unlikely.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 24, 2009 13:35:00 GMT -4
I intended to refer to the original intent of this thread; leaving Bush behind, and looking forward to what Obama brings. I do agree that it is important to address the issue of torture. It really ought to get it's own thread. This one has long since departed the tracks. Well what did you expect to happen with a thread titled "Bye Bye Bush!"? Did you expect us all to join in praise of the new President and excoriation of the old?
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Post by RAF on Jan 24, 2009 15:34:32 GMT -4
So you think the loophole is unintentional? Seems unlikely. That is your opinion colored by your apparent hatred for all things Obama. Did you expect us all to join in praise of the new President and excoriation of the old? I certainly didn't expect that there would be those who would deny reality on the lamest of evidence. I'm curious...do you share the same opinion as Rush Limbaugh?...do you hope that Obama will fail?
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Post by gillianren on Jan 24, 2009 16:08:47 GMT -4
As a side note I have a good friend whs has taken S.E.R.E. He makes the same point, you WILL talk and you will be unharmed. Unharmed, possibly, but it's still torture. Beside, when you talk, will you tell the truth or will you just say what you think they want you to say? Guess which one history suggests you'll do.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jan 24, 2009 16:25:32 GMT -4
So you think the loophole is unintentional? Seems unlikely. That is your opinion colored by your apparent hatred for all things Obama. Well, the alternative appears to be that he didn't realize that this loophole was there before signing the executive order. Which do you prefer, a President who knows what he's signing or one who doesn't? Fail in what sense? I don't want the office of the President to be further damaged by scandal and scorn. I want the President to govern well and get things done for the country. I would love to see a Washington that works well together rather than a partisan one. However I don't want parts of the liberal agenda that I don't agree with to succeed. Nationalized health care, for instance. So in that sense I want parts of the new President's stated agenda to fail, yes.
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Post by craiglamson on Jan 24, 2009 18:21:54 GMT -4
As a side note I have a good friend whs has taken S.E.R.E. He makes the same point, you WILL talk and you will be unharmed. Unharmed, possibly, but it's still torture. Beside, when you talk, will you tell the truth or will you just say what you think they want you to say? Guess which one history suggests you'll do. If or if not torture sure is debatable. The quality of the the talking still remains in question regardless of history. Given that it is quite possible the intended victim of the detainee could be YOU or your family, or mine, I think it's worth the effort. YMMV.
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Post by craiglamson on Jan 24, 2009 18:22:47 GMT -4
[quote author=raf board=general thread=2283 post=67819 do you hope that Obama will fail?[/quote]
I don't think "hope"ing will be required.....
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Post by gillianren on Jan 24, 2009 18:34:22 GMT -4
If or if not torture sure is debatable. The quality of the the talking still remains in question regardless of history. Given that it is quite possible the intended victim of the detainee could be YOU or your family, or mine, I think it's worth the effort. YMMV. I don't. What good are principles if you're going to violate them just because you think you might be in danger? Besides, again, evidence for thousands of years has shown us that information gained through torture is unreliable. So we'd be violating those principles for nothing. Gee, that makes me feel safer.
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Post by craiglamson on Jan 24, 2009 19:29:03 GMT -4
If or if not torture sure is debatable. The quality of the the talking still remains in question regardless of history. Given that it is quite possible the intended victim of the detainee could be YOU or your family, or mine, I think it's worth the effort. YMMV. I don't. What good are principles if you're going to violate them just because you think you might be in danger? Besides, again, evidence for thousands of years has shown us that information gained through torture is unreliable. So we'd be violating those principles for nothing. Gee, that makes me feel safer. Depends on your "principals" . My position does not violate mine at all. I'll error on the side of caution thank you. And again, is waterboarding "torture"? I don't think so. YMMV
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Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 12:23:52 GMT -4
Nationalized health care, for instance. Anything else?
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Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 12:26:13 GMT -4
Depends on your "principals" . My position does not violate mine at all. How very sad for you...and you don't even realize it... so sad.
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Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 12:57:56 GMT -4
Depends on your "principals" . My position does not violate mine at all. How very sad for you...and you don't even realize it... so sad. Its sad for me? To not feel bad BENDING OVER BACKWARDS for someome intent on killing me or others, just so I can say "gee, I stood on principal"? Lets play a little game. I don't know you from Adam nor your family situation so lets just pretend. Bad guys are planning to kill a bunch of innocents in a terror attack. You are part of a team who captures one of them. You "stand on your principals" and refuse to waterboard (or whatever) the bad guy and you get no information. Can't put any severe pressure on that bad guy you know, its just not right. The attack happens and your wife is killed. When you go home to tell your daughter why mommy is dead you explain to her that you "stood on your principals" and protected the bad guy. Mommy died a rightous death because YOU decided the bad guy was more worthy. And I'm the sad one? My principals say protecting myself, my family and my countrymen comes first. Anyone who thinks otherwise...well in my opinion thats what is truly sad.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Jan 25, 2009 13:26:15 GMT -4
On past performance, it's highly dubious you even captured one of the right bad guys: so when you torture him, you perforce get duff information and your family is killed anyway. Way to go
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Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 13:52:25 GMT -4
My principals say protecting myself, my family and my countrymen comes first. How are you protecting anyone when you rely on a "technique" (torture) which doesn't provide reliable infomation.
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