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Post by gonzo on Sept 5, 2009 5:42:18 GMT -4
Hi Guys I've become increasingly fascinated with the Apollo program in recent months and I've been reading this site for several weeks, just signed up today. The thing that fascinates me the most about the whole Apollo program, apart from the awesome technological accomplishments and the sheer excitement of it, are the hoaxers: I have never come across such a blatant disregard for logic, common sense or reason and I find this to be as interesting as the reality of Apollo. This is the thing that's fascinated me about this whole issue for years. I was always interested in Apollo/ the space programme, only to be concerned by the conspiracy theories that emerged 20ish years ago (well when I encountered them). It had that 'there's no smoke without fire' feeling. Then basic research shows that every conspiracy theory is wild nonsense. Every one. The frustration/ fascination for me is how people form opinions based on loud voices or "I have an opinion so it's got to be equally valid". I've sat in company with normally reasonable and intelligent people who are convinced the moon landings were faked. When you try and engage exactly why, they have half facts about radiation, shadows, computer less than contained in a washing machine, Richard Nixon etc and no argument will persuade them otherwise. And I'm talking here about reasonable, intelligent people. This is the scary point for me. The term 'cultural vandalism' has been used before to describe the effect of the misguided misanthropes who peddle this nonsense. But so many people want to believe it. I believe this speaks to something in the modern public consciousness, and that something isn't good. As an example I was entertained by these two stories. And then rather dismayed when I really thought of the implications (love the Onion one though). news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8237558.stmwww.theonion.com/content/news/conspiracy_theorist_convinces_neil?utm_source=a-section
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Post by blackstar on Sept 5, 2009 11:51:46 GMT -4
We've reached a point where gut instinct, feelings, and 'common sense' are elevated to the same level as scientific fact. Balance in the media seems to mean giving both sides equal time however unequal the evidence. I think that's why every report on the 40th anniversary seemed to feel compelled to bring in a hoaxer, and in Britain the MMR scare went on for years, with all the science on one side and the 'instincts' of desperate parents given equal weight. If future historians want to pin the fall of this civilization on any one thing it will be abandonment of its scientific/technological heritage in favor of instinct and pseudoscience.
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Post by gillianren on Sept 5, 2009 14:00:20 GMT -4
Well, and the faulty idea of "balance." Balanced reporting is a good thing, and I'm quite in favour of it. (Real balance, not Fox News balance.) On the other hand, "balance" in journalism does not and should not mean always giving both sides equal weight. Charles Manson does not get equal time to explain how the DA's office framed him really. Televangelists don't get equal time to explain that natural phenomena are really God's punishment on people they don't like. Holocaust deniers do not get equal time to lie. Sometimes, one side is just right. Vaccines work. Obama was born in Hawaii. And in the late '60s and early '70s, men from the United States of America landed and walked on the Moon. It's just that simple.
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Post by rob260259 on Sept 7, 2009 17:06:03 GMT -4
Astrobrant2 is a good friend of mine. He's on several scientific platforms, too. I think he makes very good to the point videos.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 7, 2009 17:55:46 GMT -4
Astrobrant2 is a good friend of mine. He's on several scientific platforms, too. I think he makes very good to the point videos. This video of his is excellent - www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYyNk8UzY70&feature=channel_pageLike your friend says, "Math is a powerful weapon in the war against ignorance. "
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Post by rob260259 on Sept 8, 2009 8:21:03 GMT -4
Perhaps they should check a former prime ministerial mantlepiece as well Hi guys, I live in the Netherlands and I did some asking & google around this 'grand fraud'. It seems that a small group of Dutch scientists already knew a year ago that this little rock was a fake, being just a piece of petrified wood. A petrochemist and astronomer from the Amsterdam University, mr. Arno Wielders, found out about the reality. It was a private present from the US Ambassador Middendorf, which gave it to the former Dutch Prime Minister Willem Drees. The Ambassador gave the 'rock' to Dreesin 1969 after a visit to Holland by the three Apollo 11 astronauts. In 1988 Drees died and the legal heir of Drees donated the 'rock' to the Dutch National Museum. In 2008 Arno Wielders saw the 'rock' at the national exhibition 'Fly me to the Moon'. "Its size and colour didn't match with the data I know" Wielders said. He checked out the case with the organization in the US that stores most of the collected moonrocks. They agreed with Wielders that this little gift could not be a real authentic stone. After that Wielders and petrologist Wim van Westrenen of the University examined the rock. It only took them two minutes with a spectroscope. "This is not a stone that can be found on the Moon. It is petrified wood." The only authentic little moonrock in The Netherlands comes from the collection of the Apollo 17, together with some grit of Apollo 11. These can be found in Museum Boerhaave in Leiden. Wielders says it's a good story. What exactly happened, nobody knows. The Ambassador is still alive and was asked for a comment. He didn't remember exactly but thought he received the 'stone' from 'somebody' at the State Department. I was wondering; how about these legal heirs? What exactly is their part in this story? I guess we will never know.
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Post by blackstar on Sept 8, 2009 14:24:39 GMT -4
Perhaps they should check a former prime ministerial mantlepiece as well Hi guys, I live in the Netherlands and I did some asking & google around this 'grand fraud'. It seems that a small group of Dutch scientists already knew a year ago that this little rock was a fake, being just a piece of petrified wood. A petrochemist and astronomer from the Amsterdam University, mr. Arno Wielders, found out about the reality. It was a private present from the US Ambassador Middendorf, which gave it to the former Dutch Prime Minister Willem Drees. The Ambassador gave the 'rock' to Dreesin 1969 after a visit to Holland by the three Apollo 11 astronauts. In 1988 Drees died and the legal heir of Drees donated the 'rock' to the Dutch National Museum. In 2008 Arno Wielders saw the 'rock' at the national exhibition 'Fly me to the Moon'. "Its size and colour didn't match with the data I know" Wielders said. He checked out the case with the organization in the US that stores most of the collected moonrocks. They agreed with Wielders that this little gift could not be a real authentic stone. After that Wielders and petrologist Wim van Westrenen of the University examined the rock. It only took them two minutes with a spectroscope. "This is not a stone that can be found on the Moon. It is petrified wood." The only authentic little moonrock in The Netherlands comes from the collection of the Apollo 17, together with some grit of Apollo 11. These can be found in Museum Boerhaave in Leiden. Wielders says it's a good story. What exactly happened, nobody knows. The Ambassador is still alive and was asked for a comment. He didn't remember exactly but thought he received the 'stone' from 'somebody' at the State Department. I was wondering; how about these legal heirs? What exactly is their part in this story? I guess we will never know. From the way it was passed along there seems plenty of room for multiple misunderstandings, perhaps the PM joked with his heirs about it being moon rock and they simply took it as the truth and acted accordingly?
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Post by rob260259 on Sept 8, 2009 15:51:35 GMT -4
Blackstar, I am still searching for some old stuff on the internet and it seems that mister US Ambassador was a close friend of the former Prime Minister Drees, so I think that he was trying strengthening the friendship with this gift. I somehow can imagine how things were going in those days, on these levels of politics, allies and 'old-boys' networks. Drees (and his family) must have had no doubt about the rock, because they really had no idea of what Apollo 11 had brought back. And yes, there is plenty of room for all kinds of errors and misunderstandings.
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Post by ka9q on Sept 9, 2009 0:18:10 GMT -4
Well, and the faulty idea of "balance." Balanced reporting is a good thing, and I'm quite in favour of it. ( Real balance, not Fox News balance.) On the other hand, "balance" in journalism does not and should not mean always giving both sides equal weight. Bingo. Balanced reporting is a wonderful thing in politics, art, religion, philosophy and many other topics especially when the issues are subjective value judgments. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and it's good to get a healthy diverse sampling. But everyone is not entitled to their own facts. We don't have to give equal time to people who think the world is flat or only 6,000 years old. In a general story about NASA and space it's entirely reasonable to solicit a range of opinions on, say, government vs private enterprise in space development; on the relative value of human and robotic space flight; or on the importance of funding for space vs other areas of science vs non-science programs. But it is not at all reasonable to "balance" a retrospective on Apollo with people claiming it never happened. Look at the terrible message this kind of reporting sends to kids: if you don't feel like working hard to get an advanced education and to learn, create and achieve great new things, don't bother. Go drive a taxi. You can still make money and get equal (or better) billing with the achievers just by loudly insisting that they're all frauds. Evidence is not required. All you have to do is suppress your conscience, if you have one, and pretend to believe what you're saying.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 9, 2009 11:20:33 GMT -4
Look at the terrible message this kind of reporting sends to kids: if you don't feel like working hard to get an advanced education and to learn, create and achieve great new things, don't bother. Go drive a taxi. You can still make money and get equal (or better) billing with the achievers just by loudly insisting that they're all frauds. Evidence is not required. All you have to do is suppress your conscience, if you have one, and pretend to believe what you're saying. That seems something of a shallow argument. Surely someone with an advanced education who designs spacecraft is better paid and has more job satisfaction than someone who drives a taxi, regardless of how much air time they might get.
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Post by macapple on Sept 11, 2009 14:46:19 GMT -4
I do love J Whites you tube stuff, it sounds like someone crying at having their ball taken away.
Wow, I broke copyright law and I was caught red handed. What do you mean I used it without "Prior Permission" and got landed with a writ. How dumb is that.
If a DVD has Copyright on it means you cant copy it without the owners permission irrelevant of what copyright status the original source material comes from.
Whilst he has a big moan about other people using it the fact is plain and simple he stole images and film from copyrighted material. Its the same as copying films on DVD and CDs even if the original source material isnt copyright or may be publically available the medium by which it is sold can be copyrighted to protect the rights of the distributer etc.
If he had simply gone to NASA and got the original source material , something HB rarely do, and used that on his page to refute all the footage then he would not have been in breach of copyright.
Its a bit similar to Open Source, the source remains free but if an operating system, lets say Apple OSX uses it, does that mean that the operating system should be copied and given away for free? Hell no thats protected by copy right.
If he doesn't understand that simple point of fact then he really hasn't the intelligence to debate anything so complex as astrophysics or the Apollo missions. Oh wait I remember Rene wasn't intelligent either.. I see a pattern here. Hates Governments, thinks he is the one finding the "truth" etc etc.
Renes top 12. indisputable PROOF that Rene was either a Govt misinformation officer or a complete idiot who cashed in on the weak minded.
1. The Apollo Missions were faked- I love his most idiotic and stupid contradiction. Rene quotes:-
and then he says...
So in fact the moon surface is much more reflective than the Apollo mission photos show. What a special man he was.
2. Einstein's Theory of relativity is rubbish- So light doesn't curve, or travel at different speed dependant on the gravitational influence which have all been proven. 3. The Earth has no Equatorial bulge - Kind of silly really as without an Equatorial Bulge the earth is perfectly round and therefore we shouldn't have any changes in satellite orbits, which need to be corrected. Basic physics, maybe he had a dicky calculator or something. 4. That Newton's laws of Gravity are wrong- The moon should be pulled towards the sun!!. Oh there goes the neighbourhood, the house, the cars all of us being spun into space weeeeeeeeeeeee. Really. 5. Pi is equal to 3.146264..... Need i say more, except it will cost you $15 to find out how its calculated on Renes site. Elsewhere highly sensitive machinery, vehicles, nano technology , space hardware are all proof that Pi is correct. Pi is Pi a tolerance change of 0.005 in any calculation for a precision engineered machine will cause it to fail.
6. Men and dinosaurs coexisted and dragons were real 7. Scientists claim huge tidal waves are impossible. I think this one got disproved with tsunami. 8. Distant galaxies don't recede, their light gets tired. Obviously the stars need a holiday if they are that tired. 9. Stars cannot pulsate without exceeding the speed of light. Ouch there he goes again the speed of light and relativity, a theory he says is rubbish. A bit inconsistent? 10. The Earth rotates on bearings. Well get out the jacket with the buckles and book him into the padded hotel. So thats where the oil is going, to smooth the bearings. 11. Ice ages couldn't happen. 12. Coulomb's Law is wrong.
This is a simple disclaimer on publicly available information from the Gov in the UK.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Sept 12, 2009 3:40:31 GMT -4
7. Scientists claim huge tidal waves are impossible. I think this one got disproved with tsunami.
Not to ruin your fun, but dispite the name "Tidal Waves", Tsunami are not in any way Tidal in nature, but are created by seismic forces.
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Post by trebor on Sept 12, 2009 5:17:07 GMT -4
Wow, I broke copyright law and I was caught red handed. What do you mean I used it without "Prior Permission" and got landed with a writ. How dumb is that. What did he get caught nicking? I tend to avoid his channel as I value my sanity.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Sept 12, 2009 11:28:07 GMT -4
Wow, I broke copyright law and I was caught red handed. What do you mean I used it without "Prior Permission" and got landed with a writ. How dumb is that. What did he get caught nicking? I tend to avoid his channel as I value my sanity. Spacecraft Films digitized and fixed up Apollo footage. From what he said here, Mark actually dosn't seem that worried about it being used appropriately, but Jarrah was dumb enough to use Mark's own footage to attack him, so Mark responded accordingly and had his channel shutdown.
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