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Post by garyplus5 on Nov 17, 2009 15:51:49 GMT -4
I'm investigating the death of North American Aviation safety inspector Thomas Ronald Baron, who died in a car/train accident shortly after before the Congressional hearing investigating the Apollo 204 fire. Some websites maintain that the accident was "officially ruled" a suicide, but I can find no autopsy or coroner's report. Does anyone know the source of this "official ruling"? Does anyone have any leads regarding Baron that I can look into?
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Post by Kiwi on Nov 18, 2009 6:37:22 GMT -4
...I can find no autopsy or coroner's report... I'm an amateur genealogist but I don't know much about how such things are done in the U.S.A. Are you expecting to find those details online? Baron died long before the existence of the internet, so wouldn't you have to do the research the old way, by finding out the appropriate authority or repository or archive and physically going there and looking at the paper records, or by having someone act on your behalf or by ordering and paying for copies? That's how a lot of historical research is still done. Have you studied newspapers of the time when the reports were written? That's another possibility. If you're in the United States your own local paper might have information, though it's more likely to be in newspapers that were published in the areas where Baron lived, worked and died.
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Post by echnaton on Nov 18, 2009 11:19:07 GMT -4
...I can find no autopsy or coroner's report... I'm an amateur genealogist but I don't know much about how such things are done in the U.S.A. Are you expecting to find those details online? Baron died long before the existence of the internet, so wouldn't you have to do the research the old way, by finding out the appropriate authority or repository or archive and physically going there and looking at the paper records, or by having someone act on your behalf or by ordering and paying for copies? That's how a lot of historical research is still done. Have you studied newspapers of the time when the reports were written? That's another possibility. If you're in the United States your own local paper might have information, though it's more likely to be in newspapers that were published in the areas where Baron lived, worked and died. The laws covering deaths vary from state to state depending on the legal foundations of the state. So if you cannot find the evidence you are looking for it may be because it doesn't exist. Either because such a report was deemed unnecessary or because it is not done in the state of death. If you wish to establish some nefarious collusion surrounding the death, you first need to show pretty conclusively that such a report was required by the laws of the state under the specific circumstances of the death and that the report was not done. The null hypothesis for the absence of a autopsy or coroner's report is that one was not required. In Texas, for instance, death certificates are not considered "public records" until 25 years after the death. Meaning that you must have provide a sufficient reason for requesting one. Most people who die never have an autopsy or other government certification of death. A physician signs and files a death certificate and you are officially dead. Certificates are filed in the jurisdiction in which the death occurred, which can be either the city or county and perhaps the state as well. If you die in Harris County TX, but just within the Houston city limits, the certificate is obtained from the city office of vital records. Dieing a few feet away outside the city limit means the certificate is recorded by the county. Either with the county and/or the state vital records office, I don't now the complete procedure. If you die just within the Houston city limit but in Fort Bend county the certificate will be with the city, a few feet away and it will be filed by Fort Bend county. If you don't know specifically where the death happened, you will have a more difficult time finding the certificate. As Kiwi mentioned, this difficulty has been eased by the keeping of electronic records. Texas offers online requests for certificates. For older, public record requests, there a numerous online services. Texas, for instance, does not have a coroner's office. Suspicious or unattended deaths can be investigated by the local justice of the peace who will sign the death certificate. Any determination will be made by the Justice's office and probably filed with the county clerk. There are several JPs for each county. Medical Examiner autopsy's are typically only done at the request of law enforcement. These may or may not be in the public record. Many counties do not have a full time ME ( a law enforcement officer who is required to be both a MD and an attorney) and pay another county to do the investigation. Since this is expensive, it is only done when necessary as part of a criminal investigation.
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Post by garyplus5 on Nov 18, 2009 11:19:45 GMT -4
Thanks for your input. Yes, my research has gone beyond the Internet. Well beyond. The Brevard County Medical Examiner's Office has no record of an autopsy or coroner's report, neither does the county, state, or hospital where the death certificate was signed. And the doctor who signed it does not remember the deceased. I have the death certificate and accident report, neither which mention "suicide", which is why I'm trying to find out why some websites say the accident was "ruled a suicide".
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Post by garyplus5 on Nov 18, 2009 11:26:57 GMT -4
Thank you Echnaton. I think you hit a bullseye. I don't think records exist, which brings me back to my original point, that so-called experts continue to repeat that Baron's death was officially ruled a suicide. I believe that is someone's opinion, and not supported by documentation. My investigation seeks the facts surrounding Baron's life and death. I have no agenda to establish some "nefarious collusion surrounding the death." With that said, I have uncovered some curious and contradictory information, but I will not publish it until I make sense of it through further information.
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Post by echnaton on Nov 18, 2009 11:28:52 GMT -4
Thanks for your input. Yes, my research has gone beyond the Internet. Well beyond. The Brevard County Medical Examiner's Office has no record of an autopsy or coroner's report, neither does the county, state, or hospital where the death certificate was signed. And the doctor who signed it does not remember the deceased. I have the death certificate and accident report, neither which mention "suicide", which is why I'm trying to find out why some websites say the accident was "ruled a suicide". Given your good research which shows evidence to the contrary of a suicide claim, it would be up to the web site to support their claim. Hold them to justifying their own claims. A failure on their part to make the justification will tell more about the basis of the claim than any work you can do.
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Post by tomblvd on Nov 18, 2009 11:32:41 GMT -4
I hope the first of the "curious and contradictory information" you address is the fact that if Baron was killed, why he was allowed to not only compile and write a 500 page report on the violations he saw, but also give a deposition to Congress, PRIOR to being killed.
That never made much sense to me.
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Post by garyplus5 on Nov 18, 2009 13:17:37 GMT -4
I'm not saying he was killed, but conspiracy theorists could make a case for the following reason: Baron's original 58 page report, which led to his being called by the Congressional committee investigating Apollo 204, was a lot of nothing. Baron had no first-hand knowledge about the fire. However, it did bring him to the attention of the public, i.e., other employees involved in the space program, including those much closer to the Apollo 204 program and subsequent investigation into the tragedy. The 500-page report may -- and I emphasize the word "may" -- have had some damning info for the simple reason that the 58-page report was based almost exclusively on Baron's observations and experiences, the later report was more than that, it included information anonymously supplied to him by workers at the Cape. Al Holmburg testified to that affect, that Baron was compiling info based on phone calls from workers who supposedly leaked info to him but were too afraid to speak out themselves. Some might say that Baron remained a threat to North American Aviation's contract and the future of the space program itself. I'm keeping an open mind to all possibilities as I dig further.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 18, 2009 14:03:17 GMT -4
No autopsy was performed on my dad, but I believe the death certificate says "heart attack." I don't know why; I was six at the time. But it's not as though coroners don't make assumptions all the time. Though I don't know any details here.
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Post by echnaton on Nov 18, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -4
I have no agenda to establish some "nefarious collusion surrounding the death." I didn't mean to say you personally wanted to. It could have been clearer to say "if one wished to establish..."
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Post by tomblvd on Nov 18, 2009 15:01:04 GMT -4
The 500-page report may -- and I emphasize the word "may" -- have had some damning info for the simple reason that the 58-page report was based almost exclusively on Baron's observations and experiences, the later report was more than that, it included information anonymously supplied to him by workers at the Cape. Al Holmburg testified to that affect, that Baron was compiling info based on phone calls from workers who supposedly leaked info to him but were too afraid to speak out themselves. Some might say that Baron remained a threat to North American Aviation's contract and the future of the space program itself. I'm keeping an open mind to all possibilities as I dig further. The point I was making was that he had already submitted that 500 page report to Congress when he testified. It makes abslolutely no sense at all to kill the man AFTER he makes all his information public.
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Post by garyplus5 on Nov 18, 2009 15:36:48 GMT -4
Point of clarification: Baron submitted his 500-page report to a Congressman, but it was supposedly returned unread. The committee had only perused his 58-page report, not the 500-page report. Baron asked to submit it and the committee pooh-pooh accepting it and printing it because of its size. It's unclear whether they accepted it as an exhibit or not. I don't believe they did. It's not part of the record. So if Baron didn't submit his report at that time, there was always a chance he could be recalled by the committee, or he could have been trying to turn the report into a book. Instead, Baron dies and the report disappears.
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Post by tomblvd on Nov 18, 2009 16:26:23 GMT -4
Point of clarification: Baron submitted his 500-page report to a Congressman, but it was supposedly returned unread. The committee had only perused his 58-page report, not the 500-page report. Baron asked to submit it and the committee pooh-pooh accepting it and printing it because of its size. It's unclear whether they accepted it as an exhibit or not. I don't believe they did. It's not part of the record. So if Baron didn't submit his report at that time, there was always a chance he could be recalled by the committee, or he could have been trying to turn the report into a book. Instead, Baron dies and the report disappears. No, I believe that the Comittee merely did not choose to include the report in the final findings. The fact that he submitted it, and it was available to anyone who wanted it confirms my point that if someone wanted to silence him, they would have done it BEFORE he testified. Why didn't they do it before he testified?
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 18, 2009 16:57:03 GMT -4
...so-called experts continue to repeat that Baron's death was officially ruled a suicide. I believe that is someone's opinion, and not supported by documentation.Clavius is one of the sites that reports Baron's death being "officially ruled" a suicide. In looking back through my notes, I recall the matter was discussed on various newsgroups shortly after the Fox television special aired. But I don't see anything that established a documented manner of death. Therefore the words "officially" and "ruled" are probably not warranted. I will correct my web site as soon as I can to avoid those exaggerations. Point of clarification: Baron submitted his 500-page report to a Congressman, but it was supposedly returned unread.I believe it may have been returned, since the same committee as constituted in about 2002 when I made my inquiries could not locate it. However I have no direct evidence it was returned. The suggestion that it was unread is problematic. From Baron's testimony we know that some of the members of the committee that questioned him had not read it. However I think it is premature to say that no one in Congress had read it. Here is Baron's testimony: www.clavius.org/baron-test.htmlAl Holmburg testified to that affect, that Baron was compiling info based on phone calls from workers who supposedly leaked info to him but were too afraid to speak out themselves.Here is Holmburg's testimony: www.clavius.org/holmburg-test.htmlI don't see where Holmburg offers either evidence or speculation that those who contacted Baron were "afraid to speak themselves." In fact, Holmburg's evidence is hearsay; he had no knowledge of who was actually conferring with Baron or why. Baron's original 58 page report, which led to his being called by the Congressional committee investigating Apollo 204, was a lot of nothing.Agreed. Further, I have some experience in quality control in the aerospace industry. My assessment of Baron's performance as he reports it in his testimony is that he was not a very effective inspector, and many of his "grievances" are simply his objection to being assigned to certain work. Further, Thomas Baron appeared before the committee at the behest of Sen. Walter Mondale, who was trying to use the Apollo 1 investigation to build a case to have Apollo terminated and NASA shut down as a waste of money. In other words, Baron's involvement in the investigation of NASA was a political move and had almost nothing to do with the value of Baron's evidence. The 500-page report may -- and I emphasize the word "may" -- have had some damning info for the simple reason that the 58-page report was based almost exclusively on Baron's observations and experiences.Baron's short report contains such exaggerations as assuming people were drinking on the job when in fact he had merely only observed them carrying jugs of pure alcohol (used for purging pipes). As you've agreed, there is no substance to the examples of Baron's work that we see. I see no reason to suppose that a lengthier report from the same author would not suffer from the same failings and shortcomings. Some might say that Baron remained a threat to North American Aviation's contract and the future of the space program itself.Who is saying this? Thomas Baron was the primary or sole source for many stories in the Orlando Sentinel that were critical of NASA. The Sentinel did not then nor does now have a reputation for treating NASA fairly. In essence he was making a name for himself as the media's "whistle-blower," using material that we've seen is exaggerated, unfair, and insubstantial. In a certain sense such a person would indeed pose a threat to NASA, North American, and the future of the space program, but not for the lofty, noble reasons conspiracy theorists propose. The evidence clearly shows Thomas Baron to be a "complainer" who, when sufficient attention was not paid to his undeserving work, went to the press.
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Post by garyplus5 on Nov 18, 2009 18:21:28 GMT -4
Good post Jay Utah. Thanks for correcting Clauvis, which is a great site. Re: the 500-page report: I think its clear from Baron's testimony that nobody on the committee read the report. He sent it to Gurney, but Gurney returned it. We may never know if any member of Congress read it, but I am contacting all living members of that committee to ask. I don't think we can assume the 500-page report was as lame as the 58-page report (which NAA officials admitted had about 50 percent merit). Baron certainly didn't have enough first-hand knowledge to fill 500 pages, it must have included info from other sources. Anything damning? Who knows. Clarification: I shouldn't have given the impression that Holmburg speculated anyone was afraid to speak themselves. That's my conclusion based on Baron's hesitancy to provide names coupled with Holmburg testifying that people were feeding Baron info. I think its highly likely Holmburg did know who some of Baron's sources were. They talked several times at Cutler's drug store, and I doubt they were discussing epson salts. I think Holmburg may have been feeding Baron. Why else would Baron mention him? I believe that North American Aviation may have viewed Baron as a threat. After all, Congress listened to him and Florida Today, the Titusville Star-Advocate and the Orlando Sentinel were giving him considerable press. My point isn't so much that Baron had earth-shaking info in his report, just that he was the pesky fly that wouldn't go away. Well, he went away, and so did his report. I agree with your statement "In a certain sense such a person would indeed pose a threat to NASA, North American, and the future of the space program, but not for the lofty, noble reasons conspiracy theorists propose." It wasn't a case of "Oh my God, Baron has the goods on us." I believe it was more a case of, "We're under the microscope and we don't need this nut case keeping the wound open." I believe that North American Aviation was very interested in Baron's 500-page report. In December, Baron confided to a fellow hospital patient that he was being followed. The ramblings of a madman? Maybe. But before he died, someone broke into his trailer and turned things upside down but didn't take anything. That information comes from a close relative of Baron. And the night he died, a carload of men went through his trailer. That info comes from a next-door neighbor. And after the accident, the trailer was sealed and guarded by law enforcement. Why? It wasn't a crime scene. Baron's landlord had to get an attorney to get into his own trailer to shut the windows. that info from the landlord himself. Seems to me someone was very interested in what Baron was working on.
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