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Post by feelfree222 on Jan 21, 2010 1:38:52 GMT -4
Pilots for 9/11 Truth has reported that the data stream from the flight data recorder (FDR) for American Airlines flight 77, which allegedly struck the Pentagon on 9/11, shows that the cockpit door never opened during the entire 90 minute flight. The data was provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which has refused to comment. The FDR is one of two “black boxes” in every commercial airliner, which are used after accidents to help determine the cause of a crash. One black box records flight data, the other records voice data (everything said in the cockpit during the flight). With those two sets of data, NTSB investigators can usually piece together the events that led to a crash. The status of the door to the cockpit is checked every four seconds throughout a flight and relayed as a simple 0 or 1, where 0=closed and 1=open, with approximately 1,300 door status checks performed during AA77’s 90 minute flight. Every one of those door status checks shows as a 0, indicating that the door to the cockpit never opened during the entire flight. Accident investigators monitor the cockpit door with the FDR because it may yield clues to pilot error in a crash. The FDR begins recording once the pilots are in their seats and readying for takeoff, and the plane cannot take off unless the FDR is working. More pilotsfor911truth.org/american_77_hijack_impossible.html[3] Right click and save target as here pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/FinalFlightComplete.zip to download the zipped csv file with "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter. (1.1mb zipped, 8.2mb unzipped. You will need a zip utility such as WinZip to unzip the file. You will need Excel or OpenOffice to view the spreadsheet.)
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Post by Obviousman on Jan 21, 2010 2:17:50 GMT -4
PFT are idiots.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jan 21, 2010 2:44:06 GMT -4
QFE. While the DFDR on 77 was capable of recording the Flight Door position, the Airframe of 77 was an older one that didn't have the set up for it to be recorded. A 30 sec check of the NTSB report would have shown PFT that the status of the sensor they were looking at was listed among those labeled as "Not Working".
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Post by gwiz on Jan 21, 2010 6:00:39 GMT -4
There are many more sensors on an aircraft than there are channels on an FDR, and cockpit door lock isn't one of the mandatory paramaters that have to be recorded. The door sensor is probably connected to a warning light in the cockpit, and that's all.
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Post by Obviousman on Jan 21, 2010 6:20:24 GMT -4
Mind you, this is the group who are claiming evidence from the DFDR from an aircraft they claim didn't hit the Pentagon!
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jan 21, 2010 6:54:15 GMT -4
Is it also worth pointing out that, even if the sensor was being monitored, 4 seconds is enough time to open a door, go through and close it again? Unlikely, perhaps, in a hijack scenario, but a possibility that could not be firmly excluded, I'd have thought.
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Post by tedward on Jan 21, 2010 7:14:05 GMT -4
Have to admit that this has been quite a rib tickler watching it unfold between the various forums and the fallout and accusations and members of forums chucking toys out of prams and the proponent hanging on to this despite it obviously doing harm to his cause.. Pretty much debunked even on ATS. If ever there was a need for the "epic fail" piccy then this is one of them.
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Post by feelfree222 on Jan 21, 2010 15:41:01 GMT -4
Is it also worth pointing out that, even if the sensor was being monitored, 4 seconds is enough time to open a door, go through and close it again? Unlikely, perhaps, in a hijack scenario, but a possibility that could not be firmly excluded, I'd have thought. The official story about flight 77 is that five Muslim terrorists brandishing box cutters forced their way into the cockpit and herded two pilots, four flight attendants and all the passengers to the back of the plane. This story came into being via Ted Olson, US Solicitor General, who told CNN — that he received two phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson, a passenger on the doomed flight. Ted Olson’s story changed several times. Sometimes he claimed that the calls from his wife were made from seat back phones, other times that she used her cell phone.
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Post by feelfree222 on Jan 21, 2010 15:47:12 GMT -4
QFE. While the DFDR on 77 was capable of recording the Flight Door position, the Airframe of 77 was an older one that didn't have the set up for it to be recorded. A 30 sec check of the NTSB report would have shown PFT that the status of the sensor they were looking at was listed among those labeled as "Not Working". I checked the pdf paper and the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter is labeled as "closed" Link to PDF paper pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/FinalFlightComplete.zip
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jan 21, 2010 16:51:57 GMT -4
This story came into being via Ted Olson, US Solicitor General, who told CNN — that he received two phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson, a passenger on the doomed flight. And she's now no longer with us, so where is she? If no plane was hijacked and hit the Pentagon, where did the plane and its passengers actually go? That's it? She was calling him to tell him the plane had been hijacked. Do you honestly think that a man taking a call from his wife telling him terrorists had taken over the plane she was on and that her life is in danger will have a perfect memory of exactly which phone she was calling from? Personal testimony in any case from someone involved is expected not to be exactly clinical and precise due to the fact that the person is actually a human being with emotional responses and the possible effects on their memory.
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Post by gillianren on Jan 21, 2010 16:52:36 GMT -4
The official story about flight 77 is that five Muslim terrorists brandishing box cutters forced their way into the cockpit and herded two pilots, four flight attendants and all the passengers to the back of the plane. This story came into being via Ted Olson, US Solicitor General, who told CNN — that he received two phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson, a passenger on the doomed flight. Ted Olson’s story changed several times. Sometimes he claimed that the calls from his wife were made from seat back phones, other times that she used her cell phone. Yeah, that's the only evidence.
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Post by feelfree222 on Jan 21, 2010 17:02:22 GMT -4
This story came into being via Ted Olson, US Solicitor General, who told CNN — that he received two phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson, a passenger on the doomed flight. And she's now no longer with us, so where is she? If no plane was hijacked and hit the Pentagon, where did the plane and its passengers actually go? If that is true that the pilot's door never opened during the whole flight then the muslim terrorists plot don't hold that is the point.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jan 21, 2010 17:03:47 GMT -4
I checked the pdf paper and the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter is labeled as "closed" You checked the data. Fine. Now what is the result of setting the FDR to record data from a sensor that is not present? How is that FDR data determined anyway? The simplest recorder will have a sensor that sends a signal when the door is opened, and the recorder says it is closed in the absence of such a signal. If the sensor is not present the FDR gets no signal and assumes a closed door. You cannot simply assume that the raw data tells the whole story. Example: Explorer 1 had a Geiger counter on it, and the data returned showed an increase in radiation intensity as the probe climbed which then suddenly dropped to zero. That did NOT mean that there was no radiation up there, but that that was the signal generated when the counter went off-scale high. I work day to day with a system that measures the amount of a certain protein in a blood sample. If you put NO blood in the system at all it will tell you you have a huge amount of protein present. You have to put the data in the context of the system that collected it for it to make sense.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jan 21, 2010 17:05:59 GMT -4
If that is true that the pilot's door never opened during the whole flight then the muslim terrorists plot don't hold that is the point. You have yet to show that the door didn't open. I repeat: what happens if the FDR tries to record data from a sensor that is not present? It is a layman's assumption that it would say something other than closed or opened, but the data is never supposed to be analysed by laymen, so your assumptions may be utterly wrong. It is far simpler to have a system where 'closed' is the default setting and it only responds when the door is opened (so you only have to set the FDR to respond to one input (open), not two (sensor active closed, sensor active open) to change it from its default state), which means if the sensor is not present it will say the door is always closed. And as with all conspiracy theories, if you can't provide a better scenario the official story still holds. Where did the plane and passengers go if not into the Pentagon?
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Post by tedward on Jan 21, 2010 17:15:47 GMT -4
And she's now no longer with us, so where is she? If no plane was hijacked and hit the Pentagon, where did the plane and its passengers actually go? If that is true that the pilot's door never opened during the whole flight then the muslim terrorists plot don't hold that is the point. Well, whilst perusing around the web, I stumbled on a point I wonder if you can clarify. I have not checked this myself but the data shows the door closed for several flights. Or rather the data is recorded in such a way that gives door closed on the data. So, to have several flights with no door opening is rather hard. Pilots get fed, pilots get relief breaks. Also I believe I saw comment where an engine showed a brief test. No door open in the data. Tests are done on the ground by engineers. Can you throw any light on this?
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