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Post by gillianren on Feb 18, 2010 16:22:07 GMT -4
I've never bothered going to Dave McGowan's site, because I have not yet had it indicated that there's anything there which I haven't heard over and over again. Probably I can spend the same five minutes pointing out what's wrong with his JFK statements and rip 'em to shreds as I can with what he's presented about Apollo, but unless he shows willing to have a conversation, what's the point? The only website I have of my own is about movies, and I only bother talking about conspiracy theories when something relevant to a movie I'm watching comes up.
And unlike most people here, my primary focus is not Apollo. I'm not remotely as knowledgeable as the others on space flight, and I never will be. Most of the detailed physics goes right over my head, because the numbers won't stay there. I can point out most of the sillier bits, and I've yet to see anyone who doesn't have a lot of those, but the details of radiation? Not my area of expertise. No, I combat ignorance wherever I can, and if it's Apollo, it's Apollo. If you want to talk JFK, I can do that, too. 9/11. Pearl Harbor, for heaven's sake. It's all the same ignorance in a different hat.
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Post by porphyry on Feb 18, 2010 16:40:20 GMT -4
Jay,
What McGowan has told me, is that he doesn't want to debate on BAUT or Apollohoax because he considers the rules unfair, and because he'd rather post his materials on his own website. I don't see anything cowardly about it.
I can't post at BAUT forum because I was summarily banned by some sort of automated system, for my very first attempted post -- and an email to their info line received no response. I've had a couple of other experiences of being banned from forums, or seeing others banned for unfair reasons.
When I invited you to come over to Chrismartenson.com, one of my motives was the hope that McGowan might eventually join us. I didn't want to promise anything on his behalf. I still don't understand why that was such an unreasonable request on my part, although I agree that LunarOrbit has never prevented me from achieving my goals here.
I suppose that McGowan, you and I all have some measure of arrogance or ego. It probably goes with the territory of being masculine in American society. Hopefully we can all get past it.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 18, 2010 17:23:19 GMT -4
Are you planning to get around to actually providing evidence of unfair treatment, or will you just continue to use it as a dodge to avoid presenting evidence of anything else?
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Post by Jason Thompson on Feb 18, 2010 17:35:54 GMT -4
it is a matter of education and information; and an arrogant and dismissive attitude towards "HB"'s is not helpful, rather it encourages psychological resistance. The arrogance and dismissiveness comes after the HBs have shown themselves to be incapable of formulating a sensible question and insist on making bold and utterly incorrect statements. You got short shrift here when you first arrived because you made more fuss about unfair moderation than actually dealing with any substantial issues regarding Apollo. Yes, we know. In a rude and insulting manner, and by editing his websites without acknowledgement of being corrected, so that we look like idiots for criticising an argument he 'never' made.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Feb 18, 2010 17:39:46 GMT -4
What McGowan has told me, is that he doesn't want to debate on BAUT or Apollohoax because he considers the rules unfair, and because he'd rather post his materials on his own website. I don't see anything cowardly about it. What exactly does he consider unfair about the rule of being polite and civil and conducting your debate in an open, public forum where all comments are available for everyone to see? If he has a decent argument he shouldn't be afraid to present and defend it. If he wants to learn more about the subject he shouldn't be afraid to come here and do so openly. I refused to follow you there because you started a discussion here but then made out that you would not continue it anywhere but on a closed forum. Why start a conversation out in public then insist on continuing it behind closed doors? Finally...
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Feb 18, 2010 18:09:01 GMT -4
What McGowan has told me, is that he doesn't want to debate on BAUT or Apollohoax because he considers the rules unfair If by unfair he means he can't insult people and make unsubstantiated accusations, then yes, I suppose the rules of polite society are indeed unfair. One the other hand, if he wants to acts like a professional, then this forum is as fair as I've seen. I don't see anything cowardly about it. I do. He's just making a bogus excuse to avoid facing his critics.
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Post by captain swoop on Feb 18, 2010 19:25:33 GMT -4
I am a Moderator on BAUT. PM me your old logon name and details, I will find out why you were banned, if it was a mistake or automatic I will sort it out. You might have been caught up in a 'Spam Trap'.
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Post by JayUtah on Feb 18, 2010 21:11:51 GMT -4
What McGowan has told me, is that he doesn't want to debate on BAUT or Apollohoax because he considers the rules unfair...That wasn't the reason he gave me. ...and because he'd rather post his materials on his own website.Fine -- post it there; but respond to direct questioning in a direct manner that doesn't allow revisionism. I don't see anything cowardly about it.You don't seen anything cowardly in refusing to be directly questioned by people he has specifically smack-talked in public? I've had a couple of other experiences of being banned from forums, or seeing others banned for unfair reasons.And this applies how to BAUT and to here? I still don't understand why that was such an unreasonable request on my part...Asked and answered. I saw what you tried to accomplish there. Yes, it would have been against the rules here -- and for a very good reason. It probably goes with the territory of being masculine in American society.No. It has to do with me being highly trained and experienced in my field, and demonstrating the sort of confidence that competence engenders. Most hoax believers aren't used to talking to someone who actually knows what he's talking about. If you walk up to someone at a party and start talking about how dentistry is a big scam, and your interlocutor forcefully and assertively rebukes your points, you might consider him arrogant until you find out he's an accomplished dentist and knows far more than you about the subject. David McGowan is simply the latest in a long line of people who don't know what they're talking about, but simply won't stop talking. If he's willing to engage me on an adult level, I'd be willing to address his claims. But he's had his chance and he's proven himself incapable of rational, adult discourse. The ball is in his court.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 18, 2010 21:42:51 GMT -4
I feel that one of the reasons that we have a diversity of people here is because Apollo requires a diversity of skills. It wasn't just rocket science. It was physics, chemistry, geology, photography, computing, and more. This is likely why it appeals to such a broad spectrum of people, and also why Dave got such a backlash. When you speak from ignorance on a topic where there are only a few experts, you'll get only a small number of critics. When you many massive errors in a large number of subjects, you get a large number of experts pointing out where you are wrong.
Here we are very lucky to have people like Jay who is talented in multiple fields relating to Apollo (Photography, Rocket enigeering, Computing, Heat transfer/Fluid mechanics, and so on) but we also have experts in many of the other field, and a few laymen who have done a lot of study into specific areas. Dave hasn't done anything but vist a few Hoax sites and rehash their tired old arguemnets or say "I can't understand how they did it." To those of us that have done our study and know how, that's annoying, and his using a lame excuse to avoid standing up and being accountable for his actions is seen, I free rightly, as cowardess.
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Post by bazbear on Feb 19, 2010 1:06:33 GMT -4
Jay, What McGowan has told me, is that he doesn't want to debate on BAUT or Apollohoax because he considers the rules unfair, and because he'd rather post his materials on his own website. I don't see anything cowardly about it. I can't post at BAUT forum because I was summarily banned by some sort of automated system, for my very first attempted post -- and an email to their info line received no response. I've had a couple of other experiences of being banned from forums, or seeing others banned for unfair reasons. When I invited you to come over to Chrismartenson.com, one of my motives was the hope that McGowan might eventually join us. I didn't want to promise anything on his behalf. I still don't understand why that was such an unreasonable request on my part, although I agree that LunarOrbit has never prevented me from achieving my goals here. I suppose that McGowan, you and I all have some measure of arrogance or ego. It probably goes with the territory of being masculine in American society. Hopefully we can all get past it. I find it hard to believe some "automated system" at BAUT banned you for no good reason, with no warning. Were you quoting something with offensive language? I agree on the call of cowardice by McGowan. And to your essay question for us all: I'm a layperson who has a bit of a passion for aeronautics and spaceflight. When I first encountered HB community I was dumbfounded. I looked at their "evidence", and then reviewed the facts, and the plus side is I've learned much more about Apollo than I ever dreamed I would. The HB community also opened my eyes to the whole CT landscape, and McGowan seems to proudly exhibit all the tendencies of an evil CT monger. I think evil the right word here, as he has no interest in educating himself about the things he doesn't know, or when it's simply beyond his educational foundation, he refuses to see what reputable EXPERTS in the field have to say. Possibly he believes his rhetoric and arrogant bombast, but why you would defend him in any way is beyond comprehension to me.
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Post by Mr Gorsky on Feb 19, 2010 6:53:51 GMT -4
When I invited you to come over to Chrismartenson.com, one of my motives was the hope that McGowan might eventually join us. I didn't want to promise anything on his behalf. I still don't understand why that was such an unreasonable request on my part, although I agree that LunarOrbit has never prevented me from achieving my goals here. For me, the reason this was an unreasonable request was Internet Security 101 ... as a matter of principle I will always lurk at a discussion board for quite a while to assess its rules, practices and principles before making the decision to give the site any information about me in order to register (since I also make it a point of principle to use a legitimate personal e-mail address). Consequently, any discussion board that refuses to let me see what goes on and how it works without registering first can take a hike.
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Ian Pearse
Mars
Apollo (and space) enthusiast
Posts: 308
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Post by Ian Pearse on Feb 19, 2010 6:55:17 GMT -4
I feel obliged to ask the counter quetion: why is it so important to Mr McGowan? He seems to want to inform people. That's fine but, to me, that implies a duty to ensure that the information being put out is accurate. By putting out half-baked ideas, uninformed speculation and generally erroneous information he is doing exactly what he is accusing others of doing: deliberately misinforming. I cannot see how he can reconcile that with his stated intention.
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Post by Mr Gorsky on Feb 19, 2010 6:57:24 GMT -4
JFK, Oklahoma City, 9/11 -- these are all fundamentally about tragedy. People want to believe there was something nefarious about them. It's difficult to accept that a beloved president was simply murdered by a nobody, that a building full of innocent people was blown up by a disgruntled soldier, or that a bunch of foreign terrorists attacked a major city. At some level people are prepared to believe that something evil and sinister lies behind them. And that is the bit that I really don't get. Obviously, as a Brit who only watched 911 as it unfolded on TV thousands of miles away, my perspective on it will certainly be different than those more directly affect, but surely a bunch of foreign terrorists attacking a major city is evil and sinister enough without inventing reasons why it might be even more so.
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Post by grashtel on Feb 19, 2010 10:15:03 GMT -4
I find it hard to believe some "automated system" at BAUT banned you for no good reason, with no warning. Were you quoting something with offensive language? Porphyry said that he was banned before his first post which would fit with an over eager spam/sockpuppet detection system triggering on something about him (username, email, IP, ect) and blocking his account. Which as BAUT does use such systems is plausible. Also the Contact Us form on BAUT until fairly recently wasn't set up properly (it was sending to a dead addy IIRC) so him saying that he tried to use it and didn't get a response is also plausible.
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Post by porphyry on Feb 19, 2010 13:07:45 GMT -4
Thank you, Grashtel.
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