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Post by lionking on Aug 7, 2010 6:16:35 GMT -4
I see that once again, Lionking gets no empathy from anybody here regarding the situation her country is in. I can't imagine much worst places to be than a tiny country bordering on Israel. I disagree. I do try to understand her position and respond in a neutral way when I can. But her one-sidedness and constant expressions outrage is a major obstacle to communication. We, at least I, am willing to listen and learn, but to do so there needs to be some assurance that Loinking is giving a balanced and accurate view. Past conversations have shown her not to be very good at that so I approach each new on with . People that yell all the time cannot expect much sympathy. people who always say that Israel is acting in self defence and don't care for the civilian deaths deserve to be yelled at.. you always rush todefend Israel no matter what and this is very much noticed. The last ship flotilla problem is a good example of this. The ship was searched and the people had minir weapons to denfend themselves yet the soldiers with all their weapons came over to the ship and the yhave no rigth to defend themsleves when they came only to give help to the ones in need. as for gillianren, self-defense against who? against civilians who died? against those kids who were chopped? against who? against the bridges in Lebanon and TV stations as well as more than a thousand civilian dead? you see what is unjustified biased towards an agressive state? if Hizbolla kidnapped two soldeirs in July 2006, what has all Lebanon to do with that? they destroyed the country over our heads. For the first time I was afraid on my life and my family's life. I am not ready to undergo this again for the sake of them and Hizbolla. Hizbolla is very strong and the government was against it then, yet all the Lebanese paid the price, yet they receive empathy. Sorry, but you can't expect a lebanese to be with Israel.
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Post by archer17 on Aug 7, 2010 13:15:53 GMT -4
...The last ship flotilla problem is a good example of this. The ship was searched and the people had minir weapons to denfend themselves yet the soldiers with all their weapons came over to the ship and the yhave no rigth to defend themsleves when they came only to give help to the ones in need. What's a "minor" weapon lionking? You can decry the Israelis for killing people on that boat but don't soft-shoe what precipitated that tragedy nor overlook the real aim of the "flotilla." Ironically, they succeeded somewhat in that the Israelis eased up on the blockade. You can claim I'm also biased towards Israel, but that's not really the case with me. I have a host of problems regarding Israeli policy, especially since Netanyahu has been at the helm. I never supported the "collective punishment" aspect of the Israeli blockade of Gaza and think Hamas' victory in the 2006 elections could, in part, be blamed on Israeli West Bank policy. I however don't absolve Hamas of blame either. If they weren't in Gaza, or there and less fanatical as a player on the regional stage, then there wouldn't be any blockade in the first place. Gaza is, for all intents and purposes, Hamastan. This entity, spawn of the 2007 Palestinian schism, is separated from the moderates on the West Bank not only by real estate, but by ideology. What country did Hezbollah conduct their summer 2006 raid from lionking? There's your answer. I have no doubt you and your countrymen endured a lot that summer. I also can't condone the death and destruction of property of the non-combatants on either side. It was a tragedy. So, when Hezbollah launched a raid into Israeli territory from Lebanon that summer killing 3 Israeli soldiers and capturing 2, what should Israel have done? While I notice you decry Israeli action involving Lebanese non-combatants - something I have no problem with BTW - you fail to mention that Hezbollah, by launching the raid in the first place and then fighting amongst your population centers, brought this down on your people. I told you what ultimately needs done regarding Hezbollah but it'll never even get off the ground if Israel is blamed not only for what she does, but for what Hezbollah does as well.
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Post by gillianren on Aug 9, 2010 0:24:50 GMT -4
Lionking, I am making you the second person on this board whose posts I will not read. There's nothing rational enough in them to bother with.
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Post by lionking on Aug 9, 2010 2:47:21 GMT -4
What's a "minor" weapon lionking?
sticks and small weapons comapred to the Israeli weapons
You can decry the Israelis for killing people on that boat but don't soft-shoe what precipitated that tragedy nor overlook the real aim of the "flotilla." Ironically, they succeeded somewhat in that the Israelis eased up on the blockade.
You can claim I'm also biased towards Israel, but that's not really the case with me. I have a host of problems regarding Israeli policy, especially since Netanyahu has been at the helm. I never supported the "collective punishment" aspect of the Israeli blockade of Gaza and think Hamas' victory in the 2006 elections could, in part, be blamed on Israeli West Bank policy. I however don't absolve Hamas of blame either. If they weren't in Gaza, or there and less fanatical as a player on the regional stage, then there wouldn't be any blockade in the first place. Gaza is, for all intents and purposes, Hamastan. This entity, spawn of the 2007 Palestinian schism, is separated from the moderates on the West Bank not only by real estate, but by ideology.
I am totally with you thatHamas presence caused the blockade, and totally with you that Hizbolla caused Isrel's attacks on Lebanon, but why not deal with those instead of bombarding a whole country? They know very well that the Lebanese government then was against Hizbolla and that the March 14 forces are against HA attacks jsut for this sake- that Israel is powerful and can desroy the coutnry ,escpecially if we are unprotected by international law [know you migth see softening towards HA from the M14 speech, this si because KSA and USA dealt with Syria and left them alone, but this anotehr story]. The thing i am sayign is that Israel from its part is not doing anything to remove the justification from the hand of Hamas and Hizbolla, theyn when a rocket gets them they break the word. They continue to humiliate the palestinians and deprive them from basic rights. Mostafa Batgouthi came one to AUB and said that after 6 o'clock, they lock the ygates and no one is allowed to go anywhere, even to a hospital. They can die on the roads.. they re very poor and yet mor and more seized.. they suffocate and the Israelis continuously provoke them, yet when they fire a rocket, it is the end of the world . The Israelis are attacked and they need the help of the "Free World" to figth these terrorists.
Take the Lebanese case, the She baa lands, be it Lebanese or Syrian, is an Arab land. Now if Hizbolla fights back to get it this is what the different parties would say: March 14: Israel is so powerful and will destroy the country , it is not worth fighting for this small piece of land and kill thousands. The international law says that it is a Syrian land in the biggest aprt of it, so HA will be unocovered and so the coutnry.
HA: would answer back that M14 are traitors and Israeli/American tools who don't care for freeing what they know is a Lebanese land and will say that HA will continue fighting for the lands because it is their right. HA will aslo say that - they said it actually- in the future, the water is geetting more scarce and Israel will try to take the water. The Lebanese army is so weak and can't conduct guirella fights, so HA is the best to protect he country.
Israel would say blabla about the international law and self-defense.
So, Shbaa farms are not Israeli in all cases, the Ghajar village they occupy is not theirs too. There are a lot that they can do to remove the justifications of awr, but they don't.
anyways, I am still awaiting the official story for Karam's arrest. It is said that he was the mediator with the Syrians to reconciel them with Aoun and that he pushed too much for HA -FPM relationships and reconciliation in a very delicate situation against march 14. If this is true, then the decision of keeping HA powerful and unisolated might be a consipracy and an Israeli decision. Let us wait and see
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Post by lionking on Aug 9, 2010 2:52:46 GMT -4
Lionking, I am making you the second person on this board whose posts I will not read. There's nothing rational enough in them to bother with. yes, I BEG YOU TO DO THAT.
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Post by echnaton on Aug 9, 2010 9:54:22 GMT -4
I disagree. I do try to understand her position and respond in a neutral way when I can. But her one-sidedness and constant expressions outrage is a major obstacle to communication. We, at least I, am willing to listen and learn, but to do so there needs to be some assurance that Loinking is giving a balanced and accurate view. Past conversations have shown her not to be very good at that so I approach each new on with . People that yell all the time cannot expect much sympathy. people who always say that Israel is acting in self defence and don't care for the civilian deaths deserve to be yelled at.. Well that rules me out. I don't recall ever saying such things and am unsure you you have come to the conclusion that I don't care about civilian deaths. Your confusion in this issue no doubt comes from the fact that you are yelling so much you can't hear anyone else. That is your moral outrage is so great that when others don't share it, you think they are in league with the enemy. you always rush todefend Israel no matter what and this is very much noticed. The last ship flotilla problem is a good example of this. The ship was searched and the people had minir weapons to denfend themselves yet the soldiers with all their weapons came over to the ship and the yhave no rigth to defend themsleves when they came only to give help to the ones in need. I quite rightly pointed out that the blockade runners intentionally and knowingly went into a hostile situation and took aggressive actions. They paid a price for their lack of discipline, it is possible that some even wanted to become martyrs for the cause. It was their choices that resulted in the outcome as much as that of the IDF. You can yell about the "minor weapons" justification till you are blue in the face, but each party shares some of the blame. My statements on this subject are part of a conversation that you have instigated. You must realize that it is a response to what you say, not a full picture of what I believe. As I have stated elsewhere, any side in the conflict could take unilateral actions to start a peace process by declaring borders and acknowledging the others right to exist as a sovereign entity. This is what Egypt and Jordan have done. The blame for the conflict is spread throughout the region. As long as Lebanon does not exercise sovereignty over its own territory and allows Hezbollah to act independently, it is putting its destiny in the hands of Israel and the fighting in Lebanon will continue. Take charge of the thing that you can get control over and life will improve.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 9, 2010 11:16:40 GMT -4
I think the blockade runners acheived exactly what they set out to do.
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Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 2:57:30 GMT -4
echnaton the weapons in flotilla were for self defense and not to deliver for the palestinians. The Israelis murdered people on the flotilla who came in opeace to deliver help. they trespassed the laws, but the reply was too violent. israel trespasses the law when it makes people suffer as such and they came wih weapons , overreactin to a trial to help people.. I know nothing convinces you but I have to say it. In the July war or Gaza war I read posts here and there saying that civilian deths are inevitable and that the fighters are hiding among civilians. Lebanon should control what it can? you don't realize who is HA and what is its power in Lebanon. One of them mistakenly shot a Lebanese soldier, and Nasralla said that he wouldn't have given him to the state hadn't he, the shooter, agreed to this. let alone what they did in May 7 2008 and no one could tell them anything. Hizbolla is a state within the state, stronger thn the state. Now we divereted a lot from the topic of this thread. Yesterday Nasrall accused Israel. www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&2E91566C77736D1FC225777A0072970Eof murdering Hariri, and provided wha the himslef said 'insufficient evidence' for accusign Israel. I was botehred a lot by that lier. He provided photos of aerial films of the main roads that hariri was goign through, but were filmed in the nineties, ad they were montaged. he said that when they film the roads as such, takinG the angles of the road, then any professional one knows they are preparing for an assassination and that this is what they did in one of the operations in Ansariyeh that HA could counter because it could view how they film the road , so suspected that they are going to do something there and kept alert, and could get them. another thing is that Israel is watching M14 politicians. So what? Israel has spies on the USA. The only thing that may be plausible is the video of the spy saying that in the nineties he tried to convince Hariri that HA will assassinate him. There is a debate . some journalist is questioning the film of spying. he sys that these are not MK photos that are black and white. these photos are colored, so he says, they might be from an Iranian or HA plane. I would liek to ask if anyone here is an expert on this. thnx
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Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 3:47:42 GMT -4
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 10, 2010 4:53:57 GMT -4
echnaton the weapons in flotilla were for self defense and not to deliver for the palestinians. The Israelis murdered people on the flotilla who came in opeace to deliver help. Ah so they were just peacefully beating and stabbing the IDF forces, gotcha.
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Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 5:35:47 GMT -4
echnaton the weapons in flotilla were for self defense and not to deliver for the palestinians. The Israelis murdered people on the flotilla who came in opeace to deliver help. Ah so they were just peacefully beating and stabbing the IDF forces, gotcha. see how you speak? you know very well that the sticks can not face the guns. Israel was first to jump on the board by their weapons, and the guys there were acting in self-defence. Israel knows that it is a peaceful ship for deliverign aids, and that its blockade on the people is inhumane. instead of allowing the help without conflicts, they jump with their weapons.. the otehrs should defend themselves becasue they didn't start the violence. whatever.. this thread is not for this topic and it has been hijacked..
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 10, 2010 7:17:12 GMT -4
You did know that the primary weapon the IDF were carrying were paintball guns? It was only after the "peaceful" guys on board took some pistols from the holsters of those that they'd beaten unconsious, that the IDF switched to lethal force. Sticks and knives against paintball guns, truely a case of self-defense.
As to what Israel knew, it knew that the ship was trying to run a blockade, something that is an act of war. They also didn't know what was on board, only what was claimed to be onboard. They offered to allow the ships to dock, offload and have their cargoes transported to Gaza, but the crews refused to do so, they forced the confrontation.
As to who started the violence, it's funny that only one of the ships had causalties when being bordered, the one that had people who attacked the IDF soldiers as soon as they landed onboard. The ships where people peacefully resisted had no-one killed or serious wounded. Sort of strange that.
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Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 14:05:24 GMT -4
israel allowed for cargoes to be transported to gaza? where?
anyways, the whole free world is against the killing of 9 people who came to deliver help for the needy. it is not plausible at all that this huge death toll result from delivering aids. It might be wrong to provoke Israel as such, knowing that it is a terrorist state, but also beig so silent aout the blockade is not reasonable. when the israelis have their guns and get on board, it is very normal from the passengers to assume that they are going to get killed by these weapons, given the isreli massacres they hear on the news. thus, you expect them to defend themselves with sticks. as I said, the world finds it implausible what happened, there should eb something implausible.
by the way, back to nasrall press conference yesterday, it was news that HA could infiltrate the MK spy planes and see what these planes are seeing. Of course, the evidence provided by nasralla are not solid evidence and from the other side [March 14] there are similar evidence.
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Post by archer17 on Aug 10, 2010 14:09:01 GMT -4
What's a "minor" weapon lionking?
sticks and small weapons comapred to the Israeli weapons My point was: a weapon is a weapon. Those people on that ship knew the Israelis wouldn't just move aside and let them through. To attack the Israeli boarders as they did was either stupid or a calculated move to force the Israelis to defend themselves and milk the results for maximum sympathy to their cause. Whatever the case, one can't really claim "self-defense" if they go out of their way to provoke a confrontation. How would you deal with Hamas and Hezbollah? Seriously. Both are sequestered in a particular place and have no qualms about putting non-combatants in harm's way. It's the only way they can survive against the IDF. Ask yourself how long Hamas or Hezbollah would last if they decided to meet the Israelis on the field of battle and have a 'winner-take-all' showdown some distance from all non-combatants. I don't think Israel cares if the so-called Lebanese government is "against" HA. The lame-duck government in Beirut can't take a dump without Nasrallah's approval. This is my short and simple take on the whole Israel vs [whoever] thing: what it all comes down to is both sides hate each other and there is no respect from either side. The tragedy of that aside, there is no justification for the killing of non-combatants. None. Your mistake is you don't seem to think in the same way. You claim Israeli policy spawns this or that. Other will say that Hamas or HA policy spawns this or that. Both sides can (and usually do) make eloquent arguments for their particular position and sprinkle in religion, entitlement, and whatnot, but what we are seeing is just the inevitable manifestations of hatred. It's indefensible IMO. I hope you don't mind that I snipped this particular part of your post. Your point is taken, the Shebaa Farms is a pawn in that cycle of hate I mention. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Israelis say it's Syrian territory, the Syrians say it belongs to Lebanon and, to make a long story short, because the Israelis and Syrians are being jerks about it, this small slice of land remains under Israeli control and thus gives Hezbollah an excuse to do it's thing. Seems to me that the only folks that make out here are the Iranians and, behind the scenes, Syria. Israel should just withdrawal or Syria could just "officially" give it to Lebanon. But... Syria won't do that as long as Israel occupies it and Israel won't give an inch of land back to Damascus. Am I getting this right? Better question - are they? The Israelis, presently, have nothing to do with this. The reason HA is so prominent is their timely filling of the vacuum caused by prior years of Israeli/Syrian meddling, occupation, and proxy wars which had the effect of eroding Lebanon as a legitimate sovereign nation. The involvement of Damascus and Tehran with Hezbollah is another factor as to it's ascension, one that shouldn't be trivialized. I see you made other posts. I'll toss in my custumary take-it-or-leave it two cents when I have the time.
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Post by echnaton on Aug 10, 2010 14:31:17 GMT -4
Lionking you are still not understanding what we are saying.
I am not contending that Israel is all in the right here. But the blockade runners willfully went into a war zone. Stated intentions of a peaceful journey are irrelevant. They entered a war zone without authorization and boarding was an expected reaction of the IDF. If the runners had been peaceful and compliant with the boarding party, they would still be alive. That is how non-violent people behave.
One can argue rights and intentions all day, but actions are what matter. But when one prompts a fight with armed soldiers, one must accept part of the blame for the fight. It is your unwillingness to acknowledge this that appears, to me, to be a major stumbling block in communication here.
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