|
Post by echnaton on Aug 10, 2010 15:09:06 GMT -4
I am totally with you thatHamas presence caused the blockade, and totally with you that Hizbolla caused Isrel's attacks on Lebanon, but why not deal with those instead of bombarding a whole country? We are dealing with tactics here. Their tactics may well indicate some other goal that peace within current borders. And I would not dispute that, because Israel has not done all it can to work for peace. Its internal pressures for expansion have some similarities to what countries like Lebanon face from internal forces. My primary point is that righteous indignation against an external enemy will not solve the problems your country faces nor will it bring much agreement here. A cold had look at the facts with logical explanations will draw more people to agree with you. If you want to yell, don't act surprised when you get an unsympathetic hearing. It's pretty childish.
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 16:30:40 GMT -4
you can call it stupid, but I think thier aim was to deliver help. they knew that israel can attack them, but took the risk to help people. I think that Israel could have used other ways to divert them, and not kill 9 of them and provoke them that way. The sympathy that Israel gets for being provoked , if you compare it to being provoked by guns, then this provokation is far more dngerous and is anturally perceived to be so by the people on the deck. I mean killing is too much for people who had sticks to defend themselves. for the civilians, you ar ewrong of you think that I acknowledge civilian deaths from both sides. HA is incriminated in this , the same as Israel is, except that Israel kills more civilians because of the weapons they have. About Shebaa farms, a small part of it is acknowledged b ythe UN as Lebanese, the rest as Syrian. Israel occupies both, and yes Syria, our supposed big sister, wouldn't demarcate it becasue it is under the israeli occupation. they just want to give justification for their tool, HA , to be able to move it at any point. I agree that we should wait for the Karam investigations. I heard that he said to the investigators that he met the israeli officer "out of curiosity". anyhow, time will tell, but reports are saying that he was the one who mediated for aAoun-Syrian reconciliation, and he was giving info about FPM and HAand other political information. Today he was sent to the military court. whatever my friend, both parties have to do with the fight. whatI am botehred at is that Israel receives a lot of sympathy while it commits a lot of crimes, and most of the blame is put by USA on the other side becasue Israel is their ally. They always mass-punish and commit mass crimes, and among civilians, and they uproot the palestinians from the houses to build their own houses. they destroy the olive trees that the palestinians live from.. I hope you take sometime to read this site: www.ifamericansknew.com/media/bias.htmlregards
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 16:39:50 GMT -4
echnaton the part of the blame on the people on the deck is recognizable, but very minor compared to the israeli's. you see what I mean? The otherships were stopped so those thaught that israel is going to stop them too, but they decided, from their own enthusiasm to help the oppressed, to risk their lives and deliver help. If they were allowed to deliver the help peacefully, given that they were searched in Turkey before they came, this wouldn't have happened. Israel could have solved the isue peacefully later, and in the first place they have no right to mass punish people as such. same as HA overreaction in May7 2008 where it opened fire on all of us for government dcision to remove its telecomm network. I acknolwedge that the decision was rushed and didn't take the power balance into account, but this doesn't make HA in the first place having legal right to put its own network in a sovereign state, then overreact like this.
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 10, 2010 16:41:21 GMT -4
archer don't think Israel cares if the so-called Lebanese government is "against" HA. The lame-duck government in Beirut can't take a dump without Nasrallah's approval.
so? we get destroyed as HA gets? then this justifies HA that they don't care if Israeli civilians are attacked, becasue they are electing the Israeli government that made the war..
|
|
|
Post by homobibiens on Aug 10, 2010 17:48:08 GMT -4
The lame-duck government in Beirut can't take a dump without Nasrallah's approval. Is such approval hard to come by?
|
|
|
Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 10, 2010 17:51:36 GMT -4
israel allowed for cargoes to be transported to gaza? where? The IDF offered to allow the ships to dock in Ashdod for inspection, and then have the aid shipped to Gaza with those who brought it acting as wittnesses of it's delivery before they would be allowed to leave the same way they came. Those onboard refused stating that they were bound for Gaza and would accept nothing else. They were offered a peaceful way to get the aid to Gaza and refused, how does this indicate that they were merely trying to deliver aid? Yes, there was a lot of international outrage, prior to knowing what had happened. There is currently a UN investigation into the matter, lead by a Kiwi, so we'll see what they have to say when it's done. No it's not, so you should be asking yourself, was the mission really about delivering aid? Before they left they had people stating they would either get to Gaza or become Martyrs. According to the Captain there was a group of militant turks onboard who took over the upper decks and when the boarding was going to happen, send everyone else below. Those onboard attacked the IDF soldiers when they landed, beat them unconsicous, stabbed them, threw one off the upper deck, and shot others with guns taken from the fallen. There is also evidence of non-IDF shell casings on the ship, and the crew reported that people had guns which they threw over the side before the ship was taken. Add to this that Aid Agencies in Gaza have stated that there was no recepients contacted and organised for the aid the floatila carried, and this is something that is required for distribution, and again there is a huge question over the real motives. Trying to break a blockade will get you stopped and boarded, just ask the crew of the North Korean ship So San which was transporting scud missles to Yemen when the Iraq Blockade was in place. What a load of hogwash. The other ships had already bee boarded relatively peacefully, with no causalties. The IDF forces were carrying paintball guns, with a backup weapon holstered in the same way most police forces carry a firearm. When you see a cop in the US carrying a holstered weapon, would you assume he's going to shoot you because of the stories in the News about police shootings? No. The IDF forces switched to live ammo after they had already taken causalties on their side and an activist had a stolen gun to one officer's head. You can't tell me that attacking soldiers as they board are the actions of "people fearing for their lives." Most of the outrage occured in in the few hours after the event, BEFORE the facts started to come out. We'll see what the UN investigation concludes shall we?
|
|
|
Post by echnaton on Aug 10, 2010 19:18:50 GMT -4
echnaton the part of the blame on the people on the deck is recognizable, but very minor compared to the israeli's. you see what I mean? The otherships were stopped so those thaught that israel is going to stop them too, but they decided, from their own enthusiasm to help the oppressed.... Yawn, this is getting tiresome. Put away the violins. They did not decide to help the oppressed. They decided to engage in a fight with the IDF an action that was at odds with helping others, negating your attribution of motive. Actions are what matter.
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 11, 2010 3:05:19 GMT -4
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 11, 2010 6:04:48 GMT -4
photos provided by Nasralla are prior to year 1997. it is ridiculous what he claimed then, that Israel was filming the roads that Hariri used to pass by to kill him prior than the actual murder by 8 years[he could take the MK films before Israel coded them]. Also, more rediculous is the claim that HA network present on the day of the crime in San George [the scene of the crime] was following up on an Israeli spy. The Belmmare report says that he has proof that the network that committed the murder watched hariri and remained active after his death, and that part of it took part in other assassinations. Either it is anotehr network than HA, or the HA network of Imad Moughniey without the knowledge of Hasan Nasralla [under Syria's command], or Nasralla is lying. Bellmare hasn't said any names, but the Der Spiegel report said it had inside leaked info about the names of HA members that the tribunal found evidence against. Nasrall is aying that the tribunal is going to falsely indict him. Now the tribunal has made certain mistakes, at lest this is what appears. It imprisoned 4 generals for 4 years and later released them for insufficient evidence. They were imprisoned under Mehlis , the first investigator, based on false witnesses. alter, the Lebanese government imprisoned them sayign that the Lebanese laws allwos for imprisonement of such crimes even on suspect basis. however, the justice minister said that he was continually asking Brammertz, the second investigator, if he wants the generals released and he would say no. the minister blamed th tribunal for making Lebanon look like it imprisoned them haphazardly.
Nasralla is takign advantage of all these things, in addition to this that the tribunal refused to judge false witnesses saying it is not of it's buisness if I remember well.
I read a report that those culprits whose names are mentioned in the media fled to Iran. I don't know if this decreases the effect on Lebanon, like Nasrall could say that they are not here and go get them from Iran.. anyhow, we should wait for the investigations, but I am afraid Nasralla is pretty sure that his is going to be indicted. I read a report that they will psotpone te version of indictment to look into Nasralla's last claims. Th tribunal replied that any evidence should be handed in to it, but a HA MP today said that HA will only hand in the evidence to the Lebanese governmetn or Arab committee..
it doesn't look like there is a solution for this .. I wonder what would the Lebanese government do if indeed there are HA members indicted and Nasralla deosn't want to hand them in. A pro Syrian politician said that the lebanese judges should resign or ele they will be considered as Israelis..
it will be really very disappointing if the tribunal couldn't bring the culprits to justice. I wonder if the last syrian-ksa agreement and their visit together to Lebanon can pressure HA tellign it that it will not be covered ifit created turmoil over this. I am mostly afraid if the KSA-Syrian-American agreement is over the head of HA, that Syria gies AH assurances that it covers any turmoil it creates, then when this happens Syria enters Lebanon and erradicate it, same as they did with the Palestinians.
|
|
|
Post by archer17 on Aug 11, 2010 9:47:26 GMT -4
you can call it stupid, but I think thier aim was to deliver help. they knew that israel can attack them, but took the risk to help people. I think that Israel could have used other ways to divert them, and not kill 9 of them and provoke them that way. The sympathy that Israel gets for being provoked , if you compare it to being provoked by guns, then this provokation is far more dngerous and is anturally perceived to be so by the people on the deck. I mean killing is too much for people who had sticks to defend themselves. If you actually think that somehow, someway a blockade from a major regional power would not stop a flotilla of supposed "aid" ships then you obviously aren't looking at what happened realistically. The folks on that flotilla knew they'd never make it to Gaza, why don't you? The mantra of "they were just trying to help those poor Gazans" sounds nice but the Freedom Flotilla's real goal was to challenge the blockade or "siege" as they called it. You claim Israel "could have used other ways to divert them" - isn't hindsight nice? The folks on board the Mavi Marmara could have handled the situation differently too, ya know? I'm not really expecting you to explain how Israel could have "used other ways to divert" those ships any more than I expect you to explain how any naval blockade would work without the option to board the violating vessel. I will. Israel has some sympathy here but, to be honest, most folks I know here in western Pennsylvania don't care all that much about things halfway across the world from us. Oh, they keep their eyes on Iraq and/or Afghanistan if they know someone serving over there but most don't know their Nasrallah from their Mubarak. I feel this current administration is slightly harder on Israel than prior ones but they don't go far enough in some areas IMO. As far as the rest of the world goes I think Israel garners less sympathy than her adversaries do. A case in point was the relatively muted response to the incessant rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip that precipitated the Israeli punitive response at the end of 2008. There are others but I want to keep this thread as focused as possible. I do agree with you that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians leaves a lot to be desired, to put it mildly. Civilians on both sides were attacked. My point was, ironically, not all that different from yours - Israel didn't seem to care about a distinction between Hezbollah members and the rest of the Lebanese. The fact that Nasrallah is the unofficial leader of your country makes any distinction even less apparent, which was what I was getting at with that "dump" comment. (BTW, if you found that "dump" comment offensive, I apologize. I didn't think anything of it at the time and didn't mean anything disrespectful or demeaning. I'm willing go back and edit it out if you'd like).
|
|
|
Post by gillianren on Aug 11, 2010 13:43:08 GMT -4
Actually, we had a student from my alma mater killed helping the Palestinians, I believe. Rachel Corrie was a Greener, and she is very much a polarizing force on campus--with those of us who think she was kind of an idiot's being pretty strongly silenced for fear of offending those who knew her. The thing is, I bet she thought the whole thing was one-sided, too, and her death just served to convince a lot more people of the same.
|
|
|
Post by archer17 on Aug 11, 2010 16:32:39 GMT -4
I checked it out. It is right about bias in the media but it's biased as well, just from the opposite side of the aisle. I keep up on what's happening in the world and utilize a wide variety of sources so I'm not led around by the nose. I can see where if someone is not sufficiently interested in a topic they won't do their own homework and just rely on their favorite media outlet. It happens not only here but everywhere there is media lionking. Here's the real deal: Both sides are sometimes right & both sides are sometimes wrong. Be wary of anyone or anything that spins it otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 11, 2010 20:55:56 GMT -4
Both sides can be wrong at the same time too.
One of the issues is that people often conflict issues. The floatilia is the perfect example. Claiming that the boarding was illegal because the blockade was illegal (based on that Palesteine isn't actually a state) is really missing the point. The Blockade exists, legal or not, and so to mantain it, all shipping must be stopped, and boarded if necessary. The Boarding was a requirement of the Blockade being enforced, and international law actual demands that this is done. That means that had the Israelis not stopped the ships, they'd have been violating International Law, and would have had to end the bloakade. Now someone will of course point out that this was the entire goal of the so-called aid convey, but hey, it's not like there is any evidence of that....
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 12, 2010 4:15:49 GMT -4
guys I need your help I am trying to analyze the date of the photos of Nasralla. I need to attach photos and it is not allowing me before taking permission. I circled photos and saved them.
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Aug 12, 2010 4:39:47 GMT -4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7TvXCu6PAkit's O.K. Nasralla showed videos of Israelsi filimng a martyr' house 8 years before they killed him, so the date of filming doesn't prove anything against.. I 'll leave this to Bellmar who asked HA to hand in their evidence
|
|