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Post by coelacanth on Aug 2, 2011 1:39:36 GMT -4
But how could he do this? What Jarrah is lacking for a proper peer review is not data, it's a peer! Who would this be? I don't know the validity of the claim, but I think some on this forum have said that Jarrah once challenged Jay to peer review his material. How exactly in any way, shape or form is Jay Jarrah's peer? I have only earned several Associate's Degrees and I'm not certain even I would be his peer. I've only heard of this bloke from what I've read here, but if that's accurate, then he certainly has plenty of peers. And he publishes in an outlet that caters to his peers ...
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 2, 2011 2:31:09 GMT -4
But how could he do this? What Jarrah is lacking for a proper peer review is not data, it's a peer! Who would this be? I don't know the validity of the claim, but I think some on this forum have said that Jarrah once challenged Jay to peer review his material. How exactly in any way, shape or form is Jay Jarrah's peer? I have only earned several Associate's Degrees and I'm not certain even I would be his peer. I once used the phrase peer review in context of Jay and Jarrah. Jay was quick to remind me that he is not Jarrah's peer. Jay is a credentialed engineer, Jarrah is not. This is the part that Jarrah fails to recognise. Jarrah comments on physics, mathematics, engineering, geology, petrology, material science, solar physics, health physics, chemistry, radio communications, photography... add to the list as you wish. As far as we know he has no academic (having a community college TAFE certificate is no an academic qualification) or professional accreditation; yet professes he is an expert in these subjects while making elementary error after elementary error. I'd seriously doubt Jarrah could pass A-level physics and mathematics under exam conditions if he sat those exams tomorrow. Jarrah needs to get off his high horse, quit boasting of his proven "genius" and admit he needs an education. The irony being that once he did this, he would finally realize how wrong he's been all along and why the rest of the professional world views him as a complete twit. If Jarrah embodies the genius of man, we'd still be rubbing sticks together to make fire. The guy showed he cannot work out a percentage. He blamed it on his software. So come on Jarrah, write up your work and have it reviewed. The offer is on the table. What are you scared off?
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Post by chrlz on Aug 2, 2011 4:58:57 GMT -4
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 2, 2011 11:32:19 GMT -4
But how could he do this? What Jarrah is lacking for a proper peer review is not data, it's a peer! Who would this be?What Jarrah needs is a supervisory review. He has no demonstrable expertise or credentials, hence he needs the endorsement of his findings by someone who is recognized as an expert in the relevant fields. Peer review occurs only among experts. That's because experts have only peers; significantly better experts don't exist. Jarrah's peers (i.e., his YouTube fan base) are not qualified to determine whether he's done his work correctly, so a better model would be a supervisory review such as what occurs when a teacher reviews the work of a student prior to publication. I think some on this forum have said that Jarrah once challenged Jay to peer review his material.I've heard that rumor too. In fact, the way I heard it is that I'm the only one who can meaningfully review his work, so my input is crucial. Unfortunately his claim falls flat when you realize how much energy Jarrah has spent trying to discredit me and impugn my expertise and reputation. You can't argue that someone is wrong and incompetent, then say only he can endorse you. What Jarrah really wants is for me to validate his work by paying attention to it. I have credibility and he does not, and he wants to borrow mine. Of course it always helps to have the facts on one's side. It makes achieving credibility so much easier. How exactly in any way, shape or form is Jay Jarrah's peer?He isn't, in any way shape or form. I have only earned several Associate's Degrees and I'm not certain even I would be his peer.Don't be so hasty. A peer doesn't necessarily need similar academic credentials. Those are one way to achieve expertise, but demonstrated and recognized practical experience is also suitable. I've worked as an engineer under people who didn't have academic credentials, but had demonstrated considerable expertise by working in the industry. The irony being that once he did this, he would finally realize how wrong he's been all along...Even worse, he'd lose many of his fans. They'd realize he's just another crank making videos. ...why the rest of the professional world views him as a complete twit.The professional world doesn't view him at all. I think this is why he stays at YouTube. As long as he's there, he can more convincingly pretend that there exists a world in which he is an expert.
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Aug 2, 2011 13:15:19 GMT -4
The irony being that once he did this, he would finally realize how wrong he's been all along...Even worse, he'd lose many of his fans. They'd realize he's just another crank making videos. Hmmm, I'm not so sure. I think they'd rally behind him and accuse whoever the reviewer was of being a paid government disinformationist, who was just another part of the ongoing 40 year-old conspiracy.
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Post by tedward on Aug 2, 2011 14:12:59 GMT -4
Getting it right ( in admiting he is wrong) I think will not happen. Too cosy with his crew and they are a factor. Pity they will not publish either, even in the Beano.
Bit hard to fathom someone response when they issue begging videos to go to the moon. The morality of it begs a question when he must know he will never atain a sum that will get him above that of a comercial airliner and outside a comercial airliner.
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 2, 2011 15:32:20 GMT -4
If he did write a book it wouldn't do much good either when its read by fully qualified scientists, geologists and so forth.They won't read it. Real experts don't waste their time on the enormous amount of hogwash written by uninformed pretenders, especially if the thesis appears to be that all the qualified practitioners are wrong. A monograph would be a more effective way than video for Jarrah to present some of his arguments. But that format won't guarantee that the experts will pay attention to him. Personal vendettas is the perfect definition for all Jarrah does in his videos and it lacks all scientific relevance.Agreed. Even if he had a valid scientific point, it would be lost in all the name-calling and well-poisoning. People can tell he has an axe to grind. As has been discussed many times already, if he can't write up his "research" and submit it for review he doesn't have any real confidence in his work.Indeed. Naturally I don't know what's going on in Jarrah's mind, but his behavior seems consistent with someone trying to feed his ego. In his world he's one of the maverick geniuses who exposed the Moon landings. He seems to eschew anything that doesn't nurture that belief. ...and who aren't just doing it for the sake of doing it.That's an important point. Those who tout Jarrah as a genius seem to do so on the basis of his Apollo hoax arguments. And that genius, they say, qualifies him to question Apollo. But if that expertise was recognized only in the questioning Apollo, how does that work? It doesn't; it's circular. Real experts bring demonstrable previous expertise to the table. They don't develop it while sitting there. One way to get it is in college. Another way is in the professional world. A third way is by practical hobbyism. The latter can be illustrated by someone who doesn't have an electrical engineering degree and who hasn't worked in the computer industry, but nevertheless designs and builds his own computer just for his own enjoyment. In doing so, he'll discover the science. Well, rediscover it -- but the point is that he's performing tasks designed to test his knowledge. If he understands enough about electrical engineering, his computer will work. Before you can be considered an expert on some topic, you need to survive some adjudication of the relevant knowledge. Especially so when your thesis is that all the recognized experts are either wrong or lying. It is completely absurd but Jarrah will see that himself...I can't imagine that he didn't see that from the start. Unless he's completely oblivious to the reality of fundraising, he has to understand that hundreds of millions of dollars is an absurd sum to expect to raise for such a singular purpose. I've noticed that conspiracy theorists vastly overestimate the credibility of their own claims, but this transcends that in my opinion. Now on the other hand, people have asked why NASA doesn't send another mission to the Moon to verify the Apollo remnants, etc. And we've said that the cost-benefit breakdown doesn't favor such a mission, since most people already believe Apollo was real. And we've told them that they're welcome to fund their own mission if that's the kind of verification they want. So I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised that at least one person is trying.
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 2, 2011 18:28:05 GMT -4
I think they'd rally behind him and accuse whoever the reviewer was of being a paid government disinformationist... No doubt some of his fans would. I imagine his fan base varies in loyalty from casual to devoted. Naturally the devoted ones will defend their belief by claiming the reviewer is biased. That's why I'm indifferent to Jarrah. Even if he persuaded some expert to review his findings, he always has the option later to disregard the criticism on the basis of assumed bias. Jarrah often refers to experts to substantiate some of his premise points, such as the "harmfulness" of solar radiation. This creates the illusion of credibility. People think that if the basic points are validated by mainstream science, then the conclusions that "logically follow" from them must also be supported by experts. In the IMDB debate I pressed Jarrah to tell us whether the various experts he had consulted on space physics and spacecraft design agreed with his conclusions that the Moon landings were fake. He evaded that question until all the spectators finally hounded him to answer. I recall his answer was that they would just toe the party line.
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Post by ka9q on Aug 2, 2011 22:04:59 GMT -4
In the IMDB debate I pressed Jarrah to tell us whether the various experts he had consulted on space physics and spacecraft design agreed with his conclusions that the Moon landings were fake. This was your single most important question in the entire discussion. It demonstrated that Jarrah wanted to (mis)appropriate the credibility of the experts but not the judgment that comes with it. And it just doesn't work that way.
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Post by scooter on Aug 2, 2011 23:18:47 GMT -4
amen, amen...
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Post by fiveonit on Aug 3, 2011 11:53:17 GMT -4
...why the rest of the professional world views him as a complete twit. The professional world doesn't view him at all. I think this is why he stays at YouTube. ... LOL!!! I stand corrected! OK, let's just say those few professionals that have bothered to "peer" into his nonsensical gibberish.
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Post by ka9q on Aug 3, 2011 16:41:56 GMT -4
That's why I'm indifferent to Jarrah. I can't say I'm indifferent to the guy (or other conspiracy theorists like him) because they do have an effect on the uninformed public. The public has been hearing claims for decades that Apollo never actually happened. Over time these claims do have an effect, much as the creationists' relentless attacks on evolution have had an effect. I don't want to live in a world (or a country) where only a small educated elite understands what's going on and the rest live on a steady diet of sensationalist, anti-intellectual nonsense. So we ignore people like Jarrah White -- and many more just like him -- at our peril. Their nonsense, as obvious as it may be to us, still needs to be confronted and rebutted to keep it from taking hold in the general population.
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Post by Obviousman on Aug 4, 2011 3:29:48 GMT -4
I really don't know why we bother discussing him.
He's just a crank who has a small following, an internet idiot who thinks he is someone but in the real world is simply a nobody, a pathetic wannabe and occasional pest.
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Post by photobuster919 on Aug 4, 2011 10:49:41 GMT -4
I really don't know why we bother discussing him. He's just a crank who has a small following, an internet idiot who thinks he is someone but in the real world is simply a nobody, a pathetic wannabe and occasional pest. A lot of people here ask why we speak of Jarrah so much when he's so irrelevant. But in reality the question isn't why do we talk about Jarrah so much, its why do we talk about the moon landing conspiracy theory so much. We all know Jarrah's followers are declining for various reasons including the fact he has a growing tendency to produce 20-part video series. The apollo hoax theory in itself is a dead duck at this stage. Its never heard of outside the cyber world. Jarrah is pretty much the same. Jarrah is by no means famous or a popular figure. Its probably true to say 99% of the youtube users would have no clue who Jarrah White is. My uncle (who is 57) watches videos on youtube but he wouldn't have a notion who Jarrah is nor would anyone he knows. I am the only one in my family and group of friends who has any sort of clue who Jarrah is. When people stop watching his videos the apollo hoax community will be almost non-existant. He is the only one who is still promoting it really. Sibrel has retired, Kaysing and Rene obviously are dead years at this point. There is so much more to life and the apollo hoax theory contary to Jarrah believing its significant, really has no relevance is anyone on this forum or in the world's lives. We have an economy to worry about, elections to follow, sports to play. The apollo hoax is really just nothing, there's nothing and Jarrah knows it. As Jay pointed out he just produces his MoonFaker series because he, well likes producing videos. Hopefully when his shrinking fan base dies out he will realise this and start making AMV's and make a series that will mean something in 20-30 years from now. He should really look at it considering the music he's used in previous videos, I like Oasis ;D
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 4, 2011 15:55:00 GMT -4
Well, according to his YouTube channel page he's earned a degee in Film and TV from the Sydney Institute of TAFE, and is currently reading for a BSc in Astrophysics.
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