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Post by gillianren on Aug 21, 2007 2:52:06 GMT -4
No offense Bert, but I think it rather unlikely that American English might borrow bad grammar from Dutch. It probably has some other source. You'd be surprised, Jason. English borrows bad grammar from several languages; I see no reason to assume that Dutch wouldn't be one of 'em.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Aug 21, 2007 12:43:07 GMT -4
It's possible, I suppose, but I'm in a position to recognize Dutch influences on American English, since I know both languages, and I have seen very little Dutch influence on American English. In my experience the influence tends to go the other way (American speech influencing Dutch usage).
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Post by nomuse on Aug 21, 2007 13:18:06 GMT -4
Now there's a subject!
From the long retreating fight of the French to keep English from contaminating their language, to linguistic mixes such as is spoken in the Phillipines now, English is crawling into languages all over the world.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 21, 2007 13:31:06 GMT -4
The Dutch really can't avoid it. A good amount of the TV and music they enjoy is American, and they subtitle it rather than dub it, like the Germans and French do.
Of course it also helps them have a better command of English than the Germans and French do, which is handy considering how few people in the world speak Dutch.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 21, 2007 17:01:31 GMT -4
I don't know, we talk about people "Maorifying" English over here where it seems to have become overly PC to use the Maori vowel sounds in English words..
a - are, e - aye, i - ee, o - or, u - ew
so words like "elite" become "aye-l-ee-t"
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
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Post by Al Johnston on Aug 21, 2007 18:04:57 GMT -4
A vicious calumny (probably disseminated by disaffected Australians) has it that New Zealand English only has one vowel sound anyway...
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 21, 2007 18:57:47 GMT -4
I have seen very little Dutch influence on American English. In my experience the influence tends to go the other way (American speech influencing Dutch usage).
There are lots of Dutch words in the English language, here are some: boom, deck, freebooter, sloop, smuggler, yacht (nautical terms) easel, etch, landscape, maulstick, sketch (artistic terms) boss, coleslaw, cookie, dope, poppycock, Santa Claus, snoop, spook
And some English words going the other way: management, research, service, and idioms too: je nek uitsteken - to stick your neck out
Some words in Dutch and closer to English than German: lip, open, water (German: Lippe, offen, Wasser). In the 17th century you'd basically have to know Dutch if you were involved in trade and commerce.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Aug 21, 2007 19:01:17 GMT -4
I should have said recent influence. All the words you name were part of the American vocabulary before the 20th century. Apartheid is the only English 20th-century word I can think of that is derived from Dutch (it's actually Afrikaans).
What we're talking about here is a recent occurance.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 21, 2007 19:41:15 GMT -4
Then maybe you can answer me a question: What is the proper pronunciation of Van Gogh (my favourite painter)?
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 21, 2007 22:56:09 GMT -4
Priests were marrying till well into the middle ages. I think the reason it was stopped is that they accumulated great wealth and their children would inherit it. see www.futurechurch.org/fpm/history.htmIt seems that the RC church has always had a problem with sex. Just wonderin' if the feeling of orgasm was felt as a threat to religious experience?
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 21, 2007 23:34:54 GMT -4
Hm, I'm not sure I can write how to properly pronounce Van Gogh in English. It's something like "Fan Xoax", with the X being a sort of breathless gargling sound from the back of your throat (like the "ch" in German Bach but rougher). The "Van" is very short. There's got to be somewhere on line where you can hear the Dutch pronunciation by a Dutch person.
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Post by gillianren on Aug 22, 2007 0:48:34 GMT -4
I should have said recent influence. All the words you name were part of the American vocabulary before the 20th century. Apartheid is the only English 20th-century word I can think of that is derived from Dutch (it's actually Afrikaans). What we're talking about here is a recent occurance. Are you sure?
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furi
Mars
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Post by furi on Aug 22, 2007 10:36:43 GMT -4
I am originally From Birkenhead there is quite a lot of strange Pronunciation in the Liverpool and Birkenhead Area, being a port and all that.
The accent is a errrm unique mix of Welsh Irish Norwegian Dutch German Lancastrian & Cheshire accents using both Northern English and Scouse terms spoken normally very fast and cadances that drive you scatty. The Scouse name comes from Labskaus or just skaus (can't remember if labskaus itself is Dutch or Norwegian, I know it is a sailors dish but can't remember the origin, and damned tasty it is too)
Some simple Scouse Grammatical rules.
All Sentances should start with at least one of the following Wellair (Formal), Tslikhe (informal), Eyeyey, Cairmdown, Kinnel. All sentances must include the following words: you, know, what, I, mean, there, like. at least once, these words are issued daily to all Merseysiders to help reduce the European useless interjection mountain. if the speaker has been unable to fit his or her allocated quota into a sentence it is both traditional and polite to string them together as a closing phrase “younowadimeenderlike” and as such is used as punctuation, “Like” is commonly used in place of a comma or Fullstop.
Some common Scouse interrogatives have West African origins arriving from the passage of slaves through the port. Yerwha? Yerno? Ooarya? Arya? Worrif? Worrabow? Owabow? Oodja? Didja? Datso? Gerrow? Worra Fox Hat? Fur Fox Ache? Oodi Fox Him? Oodwanna Fox Hair?
All interrogatives are also Exclaimations! And as such require the pitch of the voice raised at least 1 octave on the last syllable additional volume and pace should be added as deemed necessary, excessively emotive nested questions can result in physical damage to the Aural tract of the un prepared listener
It is to a scouser (Named R Bevvo) that active sonar jamming was discovered, who when struck by an object (A Lesser Horshoe Bat) whilst enjoying a midnight shopping spree, managed to string an exclamative sentance of such complexity together he managed to cause the bat to fly into a passing lampost its own echo location effectively blinded by the staccato pulse of high intensity queries, or as R Bevvo later crayoned "Wellair, I was on me bill just avvin me a quick bimble lookin fer a some gear an dat like asme giro was late yernowhowyerdo. when dis ere divvy bat like just dived edfirst at me, an I was like ded mad an dat like gowin Fur Fox Ache? Worra Fox Hat? Den I sees dis bat like, an I was Kinnel! A Bat! A kinbat! Come ed den Bat La I’ll ave yer! I knows where yer live! an den dis bat dived at us an went smack edfairst into de lampy dead fast like, looked like he was some cackhanded goalie for dem toffynose gets, but coz of all der rowdy an dat some owl biddie meff called da rozzers, I ates dem bizzies me, I manij to cairm misel down like an run to di aleouse for a bevvie yanowaddimeanderlike)
Common Greetings Ey Softlad : a multipurpose greeting (Masculine) similar to the Antipodean 'Mate',
Ey Softlad : Excuse me barman, are you currently serving Ey Softlad : Excuse me you seem to attempting to Twoc my bike Ey Softlad : Desk Sergeant, I would like to report the theft of my bicycle and a violent assault Ey Softlad : Excuse me your worship, I would like to make a statement to the court in my defence Eysh Softladsh : Look my beloved son has come to visit me in the Dental Hospital after I fell down those stairs in the remand centre Ey La: Hello Singular Ey You'se : Hello Plural Ey You'se lot : to an even larger group of people Ey Jude : A song by Lennon and McCartney
Scouse numbers Nun - Zero to Infinity depending on what the number is in relation to. Biftas Spends Former Convictions etc Won - more than Nun but with the same qualifier Sum - definately More than Wun coupla - any finite number Millyins!!! - 10+
Now to answer in Accent.
Wellair, Tslike fenny of use lot iz like lukhin fer sumonce te mangle da werdz like, den us English alike de bestest addit, we jus makes up der roolz an dat az we goez along den like takh da mickh oudda uselot fir not usin it kirrekhhtli like. younowadimeeenderla
Wellair, I mean ahm from Beer can head, anna yews lot my be dinkin "Now wear the fox hat?", burrits jusdee udder side of da warter to de pool like, or te be fir an proper like de pool is jusdee udder side o da mairzee from us lot. burruz lot speaka lot more proper an dat yousnowaddimeenlike.
Tslke de wirhyl is spozed to be dead posh and at, but dems divs are jus dinkin bout west kairby, but deys are on dee dee side like an it wicks me off when doze dozy gets on dee deeside pissuz on uz lots chips by tryin to get da wirhyl seperate from de pool widdow realeyezin dat days wooden even wanna be dair if uz lot on the wairkin side hadden build up de port like younowaddimeentherelike, Tslike an now jus becoz dems koppites got dat cap it ill occult chair a lode of dems divvys are wantin to be back wiv de pool anna tryin to change de way scousers and us tunnel rats are like pear trayed by all yous woolybacks an mancs an dat indie meedja, tryin despritly to get all of doze meffy Carla Lane karakhtis outtas peepz eds an faylin mizly atit, younowadimeenderlike
I'm sure a certain Forum Member from Newcastle will argue that Geordies and Maccams (I know never in the same sentance) are worse than Scousers for killing the language, but at least Geordies can be understood by some people.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
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Post by Al Johnston on Aug 22, 2007 10:43:22 GMT -4
On the contrary: it is my contention that other dialects of English are merely debased varieties of the Archetypal form used by the Tyne... ;D
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Post by BertL on Aug 22, 2007 10:47:48 GMT -4
It's true that a lot of the Dutch language is influenced by English. Dutch youth have gotten so used to English phrases that we sometimes literally translate them: the Dutch equivalent "That sucks!" is quite widely used, and is obviously stolen from English in recent years. The Netherlands is about the only country in Europe that prefers subtitling over dubbing (except when it comes to cartoons and children programs; they are dubbed for a big part although the 'business' is obviously in its early stages). The "dubbing" versus "subtitling" matter is an interesting thing to think about, but this is not the thread for that. It is also true that the languistic curiosity may not actually be derived from Dutch or German. But it's a possibility. I just thought I'd share/confirm the possibility.
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