Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 26, 2007 15:54:34 GMT -4
You're confusing concepts with individual words, Bill. "saldade" may not have a one-word English equivelant, but that does not mean that it's impossible to describe what "saldade" means in English.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 26, 2007 16:02:04 GMT -4
To answer "Can people successfully translate concepts from one culture to another"? I would have to say, "yes and no".
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Sept 26, 2007 16:30:55 GMT -4
"Can people successfully translate concepts from one culture to another?"
I would answer with a simple "yes, they certainly can."
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Post by LunarOrbit on Sept 26, 2007 16:31:41 GMT -4
So basically, you're saying "sometimes". Yep... you've just proven that there is no English word that covers the Japanese concept of "yes and no".
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 26, 2007 16:35:44 GMT -4
I think most languages can be translated adequately. However many times the meaning is lost because the word or phrases are more cultural specific. For instance, in Newfoundland they speak English but some phrases would have to be explained to other English speakers. e.g. seal finger If I were to tell you that I have a seal finger, you'd just stare at me. But seal finger is a Newfoundland term meaning inflammation and swelling of fingers and hand caused by an infection acquired by sealers handling seal pelts and carcasses. If you called me a 'goof' it would be very insulting. My wife thinks it just means that I am goofy, silly, but to my Newfoundland mind it means stupid, ignorant. She couldn't believe my reaction the first time she called me that. But I think you're referring more to concepts. Lets see... mummer is a Newfoundlland term which means to participate in various group activities of disguised persons during Christmas. I think it originates in Ireland. At Christmas time people in Newfoundland would dress up (think homemade Halloween scarecrow costume) and go door to door for a Christmas drink. They would come to your door and you'd give them a drink of rum or such. Now, they wouldn't necessarily say anything and many times you might not even ever know who they were. They could be the neighbour next door or a total stranger. I doubt if its done much anymore. I know the American Heritage Dictionary has mummer in it. mum·mer (mŭm'ər) Pronunciation Key n. 1. A masked or costumed merrymaker, especially at a festival. 2. 1. One who acts or plays in a pantomime. 2. An actor. But that description seems antiseptic compared to what it means in the context of Newfoundland culture.
I've read quite a few times that Arabic poetry is the most beautiful poetry in the world, but you have to speak the language to truly appreciate it in its purest form. Yet it can be translated quite effectively into English. It is hard t say how much is lost in the translation. But - and a big but - I think that the cultural background affects or impeads our understanding of the word more. For example, you're example of Japanese 'yes and no'. Lets say someone learned Japanese in school, but never associated with Japanese people, never went to Japan etc. They also could have problems with some concepts if it were unfamiliar with the environment and culture surrounding it. Just because I learned some French in school does not mean I understand how they think. So I'm tending to lean towards culture rather than language as a bigger influence on misinterpretation.
And Jason, you're right - it is a an old wive's tale.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 26, 2007 16:43:04 GMT -4
There is an expression in Japanese which when translated into English have a lot of Americans and Britons scratching their heads. It is “yes and no”.
So, we say 'yes and no' instead of the Japanese word. People say 'yes and no' all the time. It might even have less syllables than the Japanese word.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 26, 2007 16:43:36 GMT -4
Poetry is one area where it could be very difficult to get a good translation, but even if the beauty of a poem and some of the nuances cannot be translated well, the basic meaning can, and you could explain further what the poem means to the native speakers, including some of the nuance that you can't directly translate. A poem is somewhat ruined by dissection, but understanding can be acheived.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 26, 2007 16:55:28 GMT -4
I'm trying to imagine the sound of a Arabic poem translated into German.
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Post by wdmundt on Sept 26, 2007 17:56:52 GMT -4
Back to the original idea of this thread – wasn’t attacking Iraq just following the herd? Were we blinded by the events of 9/11? Did we let patriotism squash dissent at a time that opposing voices needed to be heard? Did we let a popular president lead us off a cliff? Isn’t that the herd mentality?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 26, 2007 18:09:15 GMT -4
This thread has an original idea?
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Post by wdmundt on Sept 26, 2007 18:17:18 GMT -4
A fair point.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 26, 2007 18:23:19 GMT -4
Back to the original idea of this thread – wasn’t attacking Iraq just following the herd? Were we blinded by the events of 9/11? Did we let patriotism squash dissent at a time that opposing voices needed to be heard? Did we let a popular president lead us off a cliff? Isn’t that the herd mentality? Yes, I think you are correct. But are we to blame? If people do something just because they are human you cannot blame someone for just being human. A nation suddenly in fear and feeling unprotected is not going to tolerate a country playing cat and mouse with UN inspectors for very long.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 26, 2007 18:45:01 GMT -4
I for one never felt deceived (except by Saddam Hussein) about the reasons for the invasion of Iraq or the necessity of it, and do not feel that I ever "ran with the herd" concerning it. And I feel that the American homefront response to the war - the general impatience of the public and unwillingness to make sacrifices, the eagerness of the mainstream media to replay their Vietnam glory-days, and the petty political infighting of the two political parties - are bad signs that America's ability to confront evil in the world has seriously atrophied.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 26, 2007 19:16:53 GMT -4
You're confusing concepts with individual words, Bill. "saldade" may not have a one-word English equivelant, but that does not mean that it's impossible to describe what "saldade" means in English. I would be interested in this and why you think this way. Care to discuss this here?
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Post by PhantomWolf on Sept 27, 2007 17:31:09 GMT -4
I'm getting the impression, Bill, that you are here solely to look for an argument. Oh I'm sorry, this is Abuse, Arguments are just down the hall.
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