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Post by wdmundt on Apr 3, 2008 17:40:16 GMT -4
PhantomWolf the issue I have is Jason's claim that Gore was trying to steal the election. If Gore made a request of the Florida courts and the courts complied -- then I say it is silly to claim that Gore tried to steal the election. If what the Florida courts did was wrong, then that is the fault of the Florida courts. Courts do things all the time that are later changed by other court rulings.
So when I ask what did Gore do that was not legal, I am asking Jason to back up specifically his claim that Gore was trying to "steal" the election. Taking legal action is far from "stealing" in my humble opinion.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Apr 3, 2008 22:12:07 GMT -4
I don't know, if you use the court systems to take something that isn't yours by right, isn't that still stealing? Just because you managed to convince a court that you should be allowed it, it still doesn't make it right does it? Also, where did Jason say that what Gore did was illegal? He's pointed out several times that he didn't use steal in the way that would be breaking the law, just to mean that he attempted to take something that wasn't his.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 14:37:34 GMT -4
As I've said, show me where Gore took actions that were not legal. If he only took actions that were legal, then any spin or characterization of his actions as "stealing" are just partisan whining.
Court actions are often overturned and the overturned decision is then also overturned on appeal. That is how the system works. Likening using the system for an appeal to stuffing ballot boxes, pressuring voters, suppressing voters or any other type of election stealing is ridiculous.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 4, 2008 14:47:55 GMT -4
Are "unconstitutional" and "illegal" synonymns?
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 14:52:14 GMT -4
Had those laws been declared unconstitutional when Gore made his appeal? No. His actions were legal.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 4, 2008 14:55:02 GMT -4
So is "unconstitutional" a synonymn for "illegal"?
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 14:59:39 GMT -4
It doesn't matter. His actions were legal, even if the court's actions and or the laws were later found to be unconstitutional. It was the law and/or the court's actions that were found to be unconstitutional, not Al Gore.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 4, 2008 15:11:44 GMT -4
Had those laws been declared unconstitutional when Gore made his appeal? No. His actions were legal. A second interesting question is, are actions that were declared unconstitutional unconstitutional before they were even declared such by an authority like the US Supreme Court? Or, put another way, is a person who breaks the law guilty of breaking the law even if he is never caught? If I drive over the speed limit on the highway (which, I must admit, I do quite frequently) but no cop ever pulls me over, have I broken the law? I think the answer has to be yes, I have. The law says I have to drive at a certain speed and I drove faster. If I drive over the speed limit on the highway, and get pulled over, but the cop lets me go with a warning, have I still broken the law? Again, it seems obvious the answer is yes, I have - the authority on the spot merely chose to exercise a little mercy and not punish me as they had every right to do.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 15:16:35 GMT -4
We have a system that decides such issues and that system is the courts. Until the courts decide such issues, the law of the land is the law. Al Gore does not decide what the law is, lawmakers and courts do. Al Gore followed the law as it was written at that time.
No amount of spin or analogy will make it otherwise.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 4, 2008 15:29:20 GMT -4
Al Gore broke no law himself, but he convinced others (the Florida Supreme Court) to do so on his behalf. I believe I've already said that several times.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 15:31:43 GMT -4
That is not correct. The laws were later found to be unconstitutional, so Al Gore did not convince anyone to break the law. They followed the law as it was written and understood at that time.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 15:33:23 GMT -4
Conspiring to break the law with others who break the law on your behalf is actually illegal. So you are still suggesting an illegal act. And you are wrong.
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Jason
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Apr 4, 2008 15:39:49 GMT -4
That is not correct. The laws were later found to be unconstitutional, so Al Gore did not convince anyone to break the law. They followed the law as it was written and understood at that time. No they didn't. The Florida Supreme Court was well aware that they were changing the election laws.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 15:52:10 GMT -4
You can show that, of course.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 4, 2008 16:16:53 GMT -4
The full text of this is worth reading. I have added a link below. From The final count showed that George W. Bush would remain as the winner of Florida's electoral vote, and therefore the presidency, under one limited set of rules - those prescribed by the Florida Supreme Court in December of 2000, and blocked by the U.S. Supreme Court in its Bush v. Gore decision. Under these rules, Bush's margin would be diminished to 493 votes, but he would still be entitled to his office.
Bush's title, however, rests on narrow legalistic grounds. The Florida vote was tainted by a series of errors and political interpretations. Under a full accounting, Gore most likely would be president. Distortions existed both in the votes that were counted, those that were not tallied, and those that were not cast. In the first group, votes included under court guidelines in the official tally, there are two difficulties. .......... If Bush's lawyers had won their demand for a state-wide recount, they would have lost the election. www.rci.rutgers.edu/~gpomper/FloridaRecount.doc
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