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Post by charlie999 on Jul 10, 2005 14:30:58 GMT -4
I've just watched the video of the Lunar Module taking off from the moon - about 20 times.
Just before take off there is a slight zoom out.
And then just after take off there is a pan upwards.
It looks like the camera was being controlled by a camera man.
Does Nasa claim that this was done from the Earth by remote control?
Or does Nasa claim this was done by the Astronauts either from within the lunar module - or from moon orbit?
Or does Nasa claim that it was done by a pre-planned timing device.
I have serious problems believing any of the above.
Perhaps there's another explanation?
I am also puzzled as to why there were any alterations at all to the camera set up and control during take off.
Almost exactly the same results could have been taken with a fixed camera.
How did the idea of zooming and panning an unmanned camera on the moon for the take off - even get thought about let alone authorised by Nasa in advance?
The chances of totally missing the shot must have been very high.
And was it actually possible to build such a complex remote controlled camera and motorised tripod support that would work on the moon in 1969?
If someone can give me a link to the detailed technical spec of the camera - then maybe I might be able to believe again that the human race has actually landed on the moon.
It seems a little far fetched to me.
Otherwise the TV program recently broadcast in the UK was a very powerful piece debunking the conspiracy theories.
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Post by scooter on Jul 10, 2005 14:51:29 GMT -4
The camera was controlled by remote control from the ground (Earth)...as it had been during the EVAs when the astronauts were away from the rover. If you watch the whole EVA video, there are substantial portions where the astronauts are together and some distance from the rover, with the camera following them, zooming in and out and such. The ground was controlling this. The liftoff panning was just more of this, carefully timed to take into account the time for the signal to be sent to the moon. The camera was still on the parked rover, some distance from the LM, to catch the shot. No magic here, just good camera work, maybe with a touch of luck.. The technology in 1969 wasn't stone age, and sending commands to and from spacecraft wasn't "new" technology at that time (Surveyor). They really don't get credit for the accomplishments, this wasn't 1961, the art of sp[aceflight had come a very long way since the early Mercury flights. Dave
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Jul 10, 2005 14:55:13 GMT -4
Does Nasa claim that this was done from the Earth by remote control?Yes I am also puzzled as to why there were any alterations at all to the camera set up and control during take off.There weren’t any alterations. The camera used was the one mounted on the Lunar Rover. It could pan and and tilt so observers on Earth could follow and watch the astronauts as they moved around. Almost exactly the same results could have been taken with a fixed camera.How so? A fixed camera cannot pan side-to-side or tilt upward. How did the idea of zooming and panning an unmanned camera on the moon for the take off - even get thought about let alone authorised by Nasa in advance?The camera was used throughout the landings to observe the astronauts activities during their EVAs on the Moon. As long as you have the camera there anyway, you might as well use it to observe the launch. Nothing extra was required. The chances of totally missing the shot must have been very high.Yes, it was difficult. They had three chances to get it right (since there were three rovers used). A problem with the camera on Apollo 15 prevented it from panning upwards, so the launch was televised but the ascent couldn’t be tracked. On Apollo 16 the upward pan was mistimed and the ascent was not seen. Finally, on Apollo 17 they got it right. And was it actually possible to build such a complex remote controlled camera and motorised tripod support that would work on the moon in 1969?Absolutely. The camera was certainly within capability of the technology of the period. If someone can give me a link to the detailed technical spec of the camera - then maybe I might be able to believe again that the human race has actually landed on the moon.I don’t currently know of a link but I’ll try to find one. EDIT TO ADD: I've found documents describing the Lunar Rover and others describing the camera itself, but so far nothing about the camera mounting. Here you can find all sorts of documents about the Apollo program; go knock yourself out. I've also found that the camera was called the ground commanded television assembly (GCTA). Here is a model of the Rover showing the location of the camera on the front-right corner. Otherwise the TV program recently broadcast in the UK was a very powerful piece debunking the conspiracy theories.What program was that?
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Post by Count Zero on Jul 10, 2005 17:02:31 GMT -4
If someone can give me a link to the detailed technical spec of the camera - This should tell you everything you need to know to build your own Apollo field-sequential color camera: WEC-ColorTV-ManualThe remote controls were simple: Pan, tilt, zoom & f-stop. The camera was operated by a guy named Ed Fendell. Here is a great interview with him. The conception, design, training and operation of the remote camera are spelled out in detail on pages 57-63. I very highly recommend you read the entire interview. For some reason, conspiracy theorists imagine NASA as some fascist cabal of Agent Smith types, led by the Smoking Man from the X-Files. In fact, the guys who built Apollo were a bunch of beer-drinking tech-heads with a really, really b*tchin' job. The managers, in their 40's had, in their lifetime, seen aviation go from biplanes to supersonic jets. The engineers and flight control pesonnel were in their 20s & 30s and had seen commercial transport progress from DC-3s to 747s. To these guys, progress meant something. Now they were told, "we need you to build equipment that will put Americans on the Moon, and we'll pay you money to do it." Any geek worth his pocket-protector would swear off women for a decade to work on this (and, I imagine, some did ). It was the ultimate engineering challenge. They believed it could be done; and they were honored to be the ones to do it. If you had asked anyone involved; Von Braun, Houbolt, Kelly, Conrad, Kranz or Fendell to "fake it," they would have told you in no uncertain terms where to cram it!
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 10, 2005 19:34:32 GMT -4
This page on ALSJ has a collection of documents on the TV cameras and systems. Check out the documents on the Ground-Controlled Television Assembly, especially the Operation and Checkout Manual: ALSJ TV Docs
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Post by charlie999 on Jul 10, 2005 21:44:44 GMT -4
Have you guys got the name of the genius who took the video of the lunar module taking off from the moon.
I think his work is fantastic.
I'd like to do a video interview of him in HDTV format.
I guess he's in his 60's now.
I saw the entire thing live when I was a kid...and believed it all of my life...
Until last year when a friend of ours who is in a Police Tribute Band did the whole works down our local pub....
Video and all of the Americans walking on the moon.
I smelled a rat. I did physics at Universiiy and computing and photography and video since I was a kid.
The Gravity on the moon is one 6th the Earth's
He was coming down too fast.
And the delay doesn't work
The Photographer was Too Good.I
He couldn't have done it in real time without feedback.
And it takes too long for a signal to travel from the Earth to the Moon and Back Again to Get that Feedback.
Charlie
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jul 10, 2005 22:05:29 GMT -4
It's not that complicated... the astronauts counted down before liftoff, taking the delay into account the man controlling the camera started moving it early. The delay is about 2 seconds, so when the astronauts got to 4 in their countdown the camera operator started moving the camera.
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Post by charlie999 on Jul 10, 2005 22:39:44 GMT -4
It just doesn't jell though. I really find it difficult to believe...
Sure we can now buy vidoecameras - that have got the remote control facility - but none that I know come with a remote control that does the up and down and across movements of the camera which would of course also have had to be mounted on a tripod and that's not to mention the subtle zoom...
Completely Off Subject - Some Terrorists Farted in London Last Thursday.
Our Forensic Scientists are the Best in the World.
And Madonna Was Wonderful.
Charlie
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jul 10, 2005 22:51:12 GMT -4
People died in London on Thursday. Try to show a little respect, please. And you are right, it is completely off topic. If you're looking for an argument then leave. NASA didn't buy their cameras through the Sears catalog, you know. There is nothing super complicated about remote control cameras.
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Post by Count Zero on Jul 10, 2005 23:03:50 GMT -4
Have you guys got the name of the genius who took the video of the lunar module taking off from the moon. I think his work is fantastic. I'd like to do a video interview of him in HDTV format. I guess he's in his 60's now. Like I said in my previous post, his name is Edward I. Fendell, and the above link has an 80-page interview with him. So, someone whose not an engineer, or a geologist, or a mathematician, or a physicist, or working in an aeronautical field? Coming down? I thought we were talking about the ascent from the lunar surface? And the delay doesn't work Ridiculous! That's like saying that every Pulitzer Prize-winning news photograph ever is a fake because they are "too good." Fendell helped design the remote camera system. He practiced operating it before it was used on a single mission. Prior to each of the three ascents, he spent three days following around the astronauts' activities. This was a lot harder than tracking a LM ascent because, unlike a liftoff where the timing is known and the motion is predictable, the men were moving around all over the place. He made it a habit of zooming out as soon as he saw an astronaut start to move. This made it easier to track their motion. In preparation for the ascents, he had worked out mathematically how fast the LM would go up and therefor how fast he would have to tilt the camera to follow it. He only had to use two controls: Zoom, to zoom out just before liftoff, and tilt, which he practiced in advance to get the rate correct. All he had to do was wait until the countdown reached 4, and start the calculated, practiced move. Even with all this preparation, he still didn't capture the Apollo 16 liftoff correctly: The rover had been parked at the wrong distance from the LM, and so the tilt-rate was wrong. The Apollo 17 liftoff looked as good as it did because Ed Fendell had planned, and prepared and practiced and was ready when the moment came. Read the interview - It's all there!
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Jul 10, 2005 23:35:05 GMT -4
If someone can give me a link to the detailed technical spec of the camera - then maybe I might be able to believe again that the human race has actually landed on the moon. Charlie, you asked for links to additional information, I and at least a two other people provided some for you, and yet you appear not to have read any of it. Why ask for information if you intend to ignore it? Moreover, you seem to have not even read what people have posted here. I find this extremely rude. Why did you even bother to come here?
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Post by charlie999 on Jul 11, 2005 0:02:59 GMT -4
I guess its cos we love our children. And you guys are our children.
We don't like it when we travel round the world - which we do quite a lot - and we hardly ever hear an American accent...
We get to talk to every nation under the Sun - but not You...
You Yanks have done some good things for this world but at the moment you are the most hated nation on earth.
And I don't think that's fair - but it's true.
Charlie
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jul 11, 2005 0:42:19 GMT -4
Charlie:
Whether or not the United States is popular around the world today has nothing to do with Apollo. I suggest you find a political forum if you want to discuss the current state of the world, that is NOT what this forum is about.
From this point on stay on the subject of Apollo or leave.
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Post by Data Cable on Jul 11, 2005 7:21:33 GMT -4
Have you guys got the name of the genius who took the video of the lunar module taking off from the moon. See above. Are you sure the video you saw was being played at the proper rate? Why not? Professional athletes do it all the time. I order ro pass a ball to a moving teammate, one must anticipate where where that teammate will be in order to propel the ball at the proper velocity (remember, velocity includes direction) so that the two will intersect at the same time. Timing the tilt / zoom of the camera is essentially the same problem, but much easier. The delay is a known quantity, the launch time is known, and the vertical speed of the ascent stage is known. And he practiced it, thoroughly.
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Post by dwight on Jul 12, 2005 3:06:06 GMT -4
Then you would have no doubt studied the history of remote control technology and would have learned that, for exapmle, radio-controlled motorboats, developed by the German navy, were used to ram enemy ships in WW I. Radio controlled bombs and other remote control weapons were used in WW II. In addition remote control of video equipment was developed by Robert Adler in 1956. Elementary TV history subject matter there as you no doubt would have studied. Furthermore, as early as 1947, RCA had tested the colour wheel colour TV system. This is the same technology used to transmit colour TV from the surface of the moon, with the exception of the RGB integration which was handled at earth based stations via video disc frame buffering.
Having worked with photography you would have also had first hand experience operating remote controlled pan-tilt support systems upon which a video camera is mounted. Again rudimentary TV techniques which you would have surely studied. Furthermore, remote iris control, is simply the same as CCU to which all studio cameras are conected.
All TV remote control systems have inherent delay caused by the relay-motor systems. Working under conditions of extreme delay, you would have no doubt been trained to zoom out upon start of motion to allow for the correct framing of the subject regardless of which direction they/it moved. Exactly the same as our "genius" Ed Fendell. Then again, those of us paid to operate cameras whether it be Studio, ENG or OB would expected to know this as second nature. Advertisers dont like sponsoring programs featuring inept camera work. Those without a basic understanding of simple camera techniques tend to be made redundant very very quickly. Especially in private TV sectors.
Having worked extensively in photography you would also know that actually the A17 lm launch is framed rather poorly if you want to get to the nitty gritty of it. The camera is not levelled properly for starters...look how the LM is slightly tilted. Secondly the zoom out jerks along in places. Thirdly as the rover was parked in the wrong position to begin with, the LM tracking is lost about 1 minute into launch (around pitchover), and thus a long clean shot of the flight is actually not recorded on tape. So much for "too good". Then again considering the footage is a very special case of ENG and that no alternate footage exists, it makes for exceptionally good video.
Yes he could have. People who make a profession working with video cameras are used to delay. It takes very little time to train for the delay such as the few seconds encountered on the LRV TV feed.
At the most 4 seconds is not too long for visual feedback. Pre-emptive camera is the basis of any camera opeartor's expertise. As noted above, you need look no further than sporting events to see clear demonstration of this camera technique.
Sincerely,
Dwight Transmission Control RTL Television
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