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Post by Count Zero on Aug 3, 2005 19:24:26 GMT -4
I believe I am still correct in saying Reagan initiated SDI, but you are correct in identifying that as a possibly misleading hair-split. Right. It's like saying Kennedy initiated Apollo. In each case, the work was already in progress, but the presidential speech made it a national goal.
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Post by sts60 on Aug 3, 2005 21:10:56 GMT -4
I concede the point too, although "I corrected sts60 shirts" have been gathering dust on the 10-for-a-buck rack for some time now.
The system-level challenges were still vastly different from Apollo as I pointed out, as well as the technologies, and margamatix still is still wrong with the "Kennedy sprang it on NASA" claim. But he might take note that we are willing to correct each other, and be corrected, on matters of fact.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 4, 2005 3:59:06 GMT -4
No. Your program omitted to tell you that the crater pattern around the Apollo 11 landing site was reproduced in Nevada intentionally so as to allow the astronauts to fly over it from various directions and see what the craters would look like from different altitudes and angles, so they wouldn't be taken by surprise when they encountered the actual three-dimensional surface. Oh please! Here's a nice page about the Geologist training the Astronauts had and some of the many man made craters they used.
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Post by gwiz on Aug 4, 2005 4:29:27 GMT -4
Here's a nice page about the Geologist training the Astronauts had and some of the many man made craters they used. As the page mentions, the currently accepted theory of the Moon's origin was developed in 1975 using the evidence from the returned Apollo samples. The sheer genius of the fakers astounds me. They put evidence into their oven-baked manufactured samples that was consistent with a scientific theory that wasn't thought of until several years later.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 4, 2005 11:06:21 GMT -4
Here's a nice page about the Geologist training the Astronauts had and some of the many man made craters they used. As the page mentions, the currently accepted theory of the Moon's origin was developed in 1975 using the evidence from the returned Apollo samples. The sheer genius of the fakers astounds me. They put evidence into their oven-baked manufactured samples that was consistent with a scientific theory that wasn't thought of until several years later. Oh better than that, They put in radoactive elements to make it consistant with the data from the Lunar Prospector and Clementine probes too
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Post by sts60 on Aug 4, 2005 12:17:09 GMT -4
Does PhantomWolf get the T-shirt? I had read about the training around the Nevada Test Site, but according to the article he referenced, the faked Moon site was in Arizona. I haven't seen any other reference to one in Nevada.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Aug 4, 2005 18:33:47 GMT -4
Margamatix, when did you see the conspiracy show?
I ask because, with regard to the area of land that looks like the Moon, I have a video of a series made in 1999 that talks about that area. It shows the explosions used to create the crater field, and it shows how it matches up to an area of the sea of Tranquility. It shows Farouk El-Baz, a geologist who trained the astronauts of Apollo, sitting in this crater field at the time the series was made, talking about how he used it to train astronauts in spotting geological features, reporting what they could see, and of course how it felt to fly over a crater field.
It also shows astronauts training in that field in collecting soil samples.
What is also obvious is that it looks like the Moon purely in terms of the layout of the craters. The soil is obviously not lunar, and there are hills and trees in the background.
That crater field was used to train astronauts, but could not have been used to fake mission footage.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 4, 2005 21:35:00 GMT -4
Margamatix, when did you see the conspiracy show? I ask because, with regard to the area of land that looks like the Moon, I have a video of a series made in 1999 that talks about that area. It shows the explosions used to create the crater field, and it shows how it matches up to an area of the sea of Tranquility. What is the name? I recall seeing a programme on TV about this, they showed the explosions (B&W film if I recall right) and some of the later Astronauts testing the LRV about them too, though that part might have been the White Sands Area 19 NTS site.
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Post by PeterB on Aug 4, 2005 22:08:44 GMT -4
Jason's description sounds like the BBC show "The Planets" which I have on DVD. I always enjoy watching the Moon segment of the show.
As far as the dynamited crater field, I seem to remember Farouk el-Baz saying that the astronauts trained by by flying over them at a speed which recreated the speed they'd fly over them while in orbit. As lunar orbital speed would have been higher than the speed of a T-38, I assume the crater field was scaled down.
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 4, 2005 23:08:51 GMT -4
The crater field was indeed scaled down, also because they didn't want to blast full-scale holes in the ground.
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Post by Count Zero on Aug 5, 2005 13:09:50 GMT -4
The crater field was indeed scaled down, also because they didn't want to blast full-scale holes in the ground. Why not? blowing holes in the ground was something they were quite proficient at at the Nevada Proving Ground. Indeed, it was sort of a central preoccupation. Most of the craters shown here are subsidence craters caused by fully contained underground nuclear tests. Because there was no ejecta, they do not have raised rims. Many lunar craters of comparable size also do not have rims because, in the low gravity, the ejecta was blown too far. If you use your left mouse button to drag/scroll to the north, you can see some raised-rim craters caused by uncontained subsurface bursts. I forget which astronaut I read describing training here. For some OT fun, if you scroll to the northeast, you will find Groom Lake and its famously non-existant airbase, popularly called "Area 51".
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Post by Jason Thompson on Aug 6, 2005 11:40:21 GMT -4
Jason's description sounds like the BBC show "The Planets"
That's the one.
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